Max HP Hate and Counter Skills

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Re: Max HP Hate and Counter Skills

Postby Shrimpyrice » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:51 am

I can't tell for sure if you are being sarcastic or not Romdeau. The thing is, damage IS being dealt, and that's the problem. If it has an effect on current hp, regardless of what the max hp says after the event occurs, then damage is being dealt. As Seizan has pointed out, Max HP hate already has a lot of utility, and I don't see how making a counter skill trigger due to a skill would make Guardian or Star Dragon OP. I mean, really? Are we worried that this change is going to have such an effect as to make those cards overpowered? I'm having a really hard time seeing that happening. It's not like Max hp hate is the common hard counter to units that use counter skills. It already reduces the effectiveness of those cards by preventing future standby, thereby hurting more defensive strategies. It should at least allow the unit to retaliate.
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Re: Max HP Hate and Counter Skills

Postby Spears » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:32 am

Guardian officialy No1 complained about card ever.
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Re: Max HP Hate and Counter Skills

Postby GOSCAR » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:38 am

Return says hi. :P
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Re: Max HP Hate and Counter Skills

Postby Xovian » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:26 am

Shrimpyrice wrote:I can't tell for sure if you are being sarcastic or not Romdeau. The thing is, damage IS being dealt, and that's the problem. If it has an effect on current hp, regardless of what the max hp says after the event occurs, then damage is being dealt. As Seizan has pointed out, Max HP hate already has a lot of utility, and I don't see how making a counter skill trigger due to a skill would make Guardian or Star Dragon OP. I mean, really? Are we worried that this change is going to have such an effect as to make those cards overpowered? I'm having a really hard time seeing that happening. It's not like Max hp hate is the common hard counter to units that use counter skills. It already reduces the effectiveness of those cards by preventing future standby, thereby hurting more defensive strategies. It should at least allow the unit to retaliate.

This is where you ere.
Damage is not being done. Stat manipulation is.
It's no different then a sylph adding to a units agi.
Simply put, you're comparing apples to oranges but trying to make the apples taste like an orange.
Changes can happen, a - to hp is damage, anything else is simply stat manipulation and not damage.

As to defensive strats, it hasnt been viable since set 1 with cossawary king (with a specific dragon rider too =X ).
Guardian files in their prime either got trounced or did the trouncing.
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Re: Max HP Hate and Counter Skills

Postby Icyglare » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:57 am

Everyone's being all touchy but I can understand both sides

#1 120hp/120hp gets maxhp damage and then it equals 80hp/80hp, which should be 40 damage BUT

#2 10hp/120hp gets maxhp damage and then it equals 10hp/120hp, there was no damage done

For programmer's sake, it would be easier just to put it as no actual damage happened, not triggering counters. One way to explain #1 is, no damage happened when maxHP reduced but no unit is allowed to have more HP than maxHP therefore, it's hp was reduced without having damage done.
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Re: Max HP Hate and Counter Skills

Postby Yumenoryu » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:16 pm

Xovian wrote:
Shrimpyrice wrote:I can't tell for sure if you are being sarcastic or not Romdeau. The thing is, damage IS being dealt, and that's the problem. If it has an effect on current hp, regardless of what the max hp says after the event occurs, then damage is being dealt. As Seizan has pointed out, Max HP hate already has a lot of utility, and I don't see how making a counter skill trigger due to a skill would make Guardian or Star Dragon OP. I mean, really? Are we worried that this change is going to have such an effect as to make those cards overpowered? I'm having a really hard time seeing that happening. It's not like Max hp hate is the common hard counter to units that use counter skills. It already reduces the effectiveness of those cards by preventing future standby, thereby hurting more defensive strategies. It should at least allow the unit to retaliate.

This is where you ere.
Damage is not being done. Stat manipulation is.
It's no different then a sylph adding to a units agi.
Simply put, you're comparing apples to oranges but trying to make the apples taste like an orange.
Changes can happen, a - to hp is damage, anything else is simply stat manipulation and not damage.

As to defensive strats, it hasnt been viable since set 1 with cossawary king (with a specific dragon rider too =X ).
Guardian files in their prime either got trounced or did the trouncing.



Your analogy is flawed. It may be a "stat" in the sense that it is a parameter of the unit, but it is the only parameter (besides current HP) that affects the unit's existence on the field. As per your example, decreasing Agility to 0 or beyond does not eliminate that unit's presence on the field. Reducing any true stat (Damage, Agility, Defense) reduces that unit's viability or usefulness, but not its presence on the field. Reducing Max Hp to 0 or beyond removes that card's presence on the field. Simple as that. It is comparing apples to apples, though one may be red and the other green. That, in my opinion, is at least one reason why reducing Max HP should trigger a counter skill.
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Re: Max HP Hate and Counter Skills

Postby Shrimpyrice » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:33 pm

Exactly what Yumenoryu said. Reducing a unit's agility can never actually close a unit, whereas reducing a unit's Max HP can. For that reason, the analogy doesn't ring true. While I see your point as it being a form of stat manipulation, its direct relation to the unit's survival (by itself and without the aid of outside forces such as another event affecting HP) means it should be triggering a counter skill when current HP is affected by max HP skills. We've gone over the multiple uses Max HP reduction has on the game beyond avoiding counter skills, but I've yet to hear a supported argument as to why it shouldn't trigger a counter skill other than that its a form of stat manipulation. I just want to clarify that I'm not simply referring to guardian here. My issue is with the whole counter system as it relates to Max HP. Guardian happens to be a good example, but my argument isn't limited to solely that card.
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Re: Max HP Hate and Counter Skills

Postby Icyglare » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:42 pm

Yea, I know what you mean Shrimpyrice, it kinda bothered me at first when Francis "Attacked" but didn't trigger counter skills.

But it doesn't attack HP, it attacks maxHP, like when Sergis SS hits Guardian with 20hp/70maxhp.

When maxHP is reduced then the rule that HP cannot exceed maxHP comes in causing the reduction in HP, that way it isn't considered damage.... at least that's the way I see it for my sake to understand why it doesn't trigger it
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Re: Max HP Hate and Counter Skills

Postby Spears » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:09 pm

Because counters and maxhp are both balanced with each other in mind.
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Re: Max HP Hate and Counter Skills

Postby Shrimpyrice » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:01 pm

Icyglare wrote:Yea, I know what you mean Shrimpyrice, it kinda bothered me at first when Francis "Attacked" but didn't trigger counter skills.

But it doesn't attack HP, it attacks maxHP, like when Sergis SS hits Guardian with 20hp/70maxhp.

When maxHP is reduced then the rule that HP cannot exceed maxHP comes in causing the reduction in HP, that way it isn't considered damage.... at least that's the way I see it for my sake to understand why it doesn't trigger it


Except when HP and Max HP are equal, then it does affect HP, plain and simple. I get that the rule is that HP can't exceed Max HP, but that doesn't mean the skill doesn't affect HP. I'm perfectly comfortable with HP being reduced along with Max HP. I'm not making the argument that HP shouldn't be affected. What I am arguing is that when HP is affected by Max HP skills, counters should trigger.


Spears wrote:Because counters and maxhp are both balanced with each other in mind.


This does nothing to further the argument. How are they balanced? Counter already has a weakness in that the unit must take damage in order for it to trigger, nor can the unit counter when HP is reduced to 0 or below. That's fine. I'm okay with that mechanic. I don't see how counter is balanced with Max HP reduction in this case.
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