Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby AngelicDeath » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:28 pm

I like that analysis.

Gon, i don't get it. Just because you lost with jewel open means it is balanced? I lost with it too what does that mean? By the way i have a 56% win rate so how does that work into your equation?

I don't have the answers and not sure if the card itself is OP or not.

Gadu,

Good point though. I mean right now the lv 6 options for falkow are in my opinion a bit weaker than say lawtia or gowen or refess imagine playing arthropleurid t 3 ! i haven't seen it yet but i guess they are playing jewel then like lost tome or something? Perhaps truth of regus on a gamble?

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AD
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby AqvasFire2 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:47 pm

Okay, here's a proposed change, tell me what you guys think:

Jewel open: you cannot set a Falkow grimoire the next turn (AKA no jewel+tidal).
Jewel start: target unit besides this one gets lvl +1 (includes enemies (so no Faytis on their level 2, either)).

Also, mediator SS: instead of SP=3 (AKA made only for Jewel), how about changing it to SP <=1, AKA like PoM except if you also get iczered at 0 SP, you still get the benefit.

That way, Jewel works as intended, without simply being a way to get free wins if someone opens with a level 2 and doesn't follow shade or said level 2 isn't magic greatsword pixy.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:57 pm

I think lots of empirical evidence is needed to warrant an "over-powered" claim. I also think most of the complaints in this thread were about tidal, Faytis, and Mediator SS. I don't think Jewel is OP at all, but if Logress shows RP data suggesting that it IS OP, then I would believe you guys.

OR, if someone wants to show a side by side comparison of a traditional cath open to a Jewel open and show how Jewel is strictly better, I'd love to see that too.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby AngelicDeath » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:58 pm

Looking better already. We definitely need more lv 2 open options next set. Seriously. Right now it is all about avoiding shade and avoiding tidals WTF.


Gon- what are your thouts on Gadu's point? I really don't consider myself enough of an expert to make an opinion on it.

AD
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:00 am

AngelicDeath wrote:Gon- what are your thouts on Gadu's point? I really don't consider myself enough of an expert to make an opinion on it.

AD


What was his point? It's a long thread...
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby Peralisc9001 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:12 am

GonFreeces31 wrote:I think lots of empirical evidence is needed to warrant an "over-powered" claim. I also think most of the complaints in this thread were about tidal, Faytis, and Mediator SS. I don't think Jewel is OP at all, but if Logress shows RP data suggesting that it IS OP, then I would believe you guys.

OR, if someone wants to show a side by side comparison of a traditional cath open to a Jewel open and show how Jewel is strictly better, I'd love to see that too.

There was already plenty of empirical evidence presented. If you need further clarification then check the first post in this thread for more conclusive and undeniable evidence of OP:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13617&p=176272&view=show#p176272
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby AngelicDeath » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:25 am

Gon,

Playing a lv 6 on t3- possibly. Of course this could be disrupted with shade etc. though i have to imagine playing jewel-tome-mantis with say a + 2 or 3 sp (shvara) 1st ss followed by ? Would talisman mystic be good as a follow up aince mantis isimmune from attack? I mean your opp would effectively be out of grims pretty early if this sequence went off.

Cheers,
AD
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby AqvasFire2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:35 am

GonFreeces31 wrote:I think lots of empirical evidence is needed to warrant an "over-powered" claim. I also think most of the complaints in this thread were about tidal, Faytis, and Mediator SS. I don't think Jewel is OP at all, but if Logress shows RP data suggesting that it IS OP, then I would believe you guys.

OR, if someone wants to show a side by side comparison of a traditional cath open to a Jewel open and show how Jewel is strictly better, I'd love to see that too.


You know what? I love how you guys talk up a big game about "if the data shows it", but when push comes to shove, Logress is an English major, you're a squishy psych PhD, Romdeau has a BS in that as well, and generally, the whole balance team is crap at data analysis and math (unless imortal is still around, but I have reason to be skeptical of him as well). The creator of M:tG, Richard Garfield, when he was creating it, was pursuing a PhD in UPenn in computational combinatorics, or some other crazy, off the wall graduate-level math, and so were some of his collaborators (I spoke to one once upon a time who helped him out and was getting a PhD in physics at UPenn).

Long story short? Even if you guys had the data, you wouldn't know what to do with it, and nor do I think you have the proper metrics to know what to do with it. There's a reason the erratas have been consistent failures--that is, they patch up the current set, until the next one comes out, and the environment is same crap, different cards. At the end of the day, the only common factor in all your failures is you. So yes, I'm calling you out, because you want to talk like you're a data expert, yet to my knowledge, everyone on the errata team just hasn't put in the time in learning data science/machine learning/etc. for me to take you seriously.

So in the meantime, I suggest you take the arguments in this thread with a bit more respect than you do, because what players experience is probably something they do a far better job articulating and pinpointing than you can with your half-hearted amateur data analysis skills.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby AngelicDeath » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:46 am

Well i would argue that earning a bachelor's of science might indeed require using the scientific method but alas this is not so. I am not afraid to cast stones though overtly a little leas likely than aqvas at doing so. That said i agree wi th a mathematical approach to the card development rather than some quasi empirical staistical hocus pocus that i frequently hear but never see.

Drop me some numbers and i guarantee I can run circles with them around you faster than you can interpret them.

From what i have seen though Rom has made some pretty good arguments on cards/card development. I haven't had issue with his arguments on card development. Graymas may well bethemost balanced card in all set 11.

Cheers,
AD
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:49 am

You can talk all you want. I already clearly articulated what is specifically powerful about Jewel. Not tidal, not faytis, not mediator SS, but the card itself. I articulated it a long time ago and it was never made clear why activating your SS 1 turn earlier is necessarily overpowered. The effect of your opponent getting to their SS faster than you happens many times regardless of cause or salience. By no means does getting to your first SS quickly convey justification for overpowered-ness.
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