Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby AngelicDeath » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:58 am

Carl,

Excellent point and as you said stated earlier. I never said jewel itself was an OP card. The sticking point is this- you have often advocated getting to your first ss earlier than your opponent as a strategy. There must be an underlying reason why this is such.

for me the door is out on jewel- i meanthe card itself isn't too OP but given it isfalkow and with the limited options tocounter it outside it's field....
Nought's had, all's spent, Where our desire is got without content;'Tis safer to be that which we destroy Than by destruction dwell in doubtful joy.

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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby AqvasFire2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:59 am

GonFreeces31 wrote:You can talk all you want. I already clearly articulated what is specifically powerful about Jewel. Not tidal, not faytis, not mediator SS, but the card itself. I articulated it a long time ago and it was never made clear why activating your SS 1 turn earlier is necessarily overpowered. The effect of your opponent getting to their SS faster than you happens many times regardless of cause or salience. By no means does getting to your first SS quickly convey justification for overpowered-ness.


You're talking about a generic SS. I'm talking about mediator. Also, the way Jewel works makes landing that Faytis easier. If you open up cath or sage, well, if you tidal, you can't Faytis the next turn. If you cath mof or sage mof faytis, you have a chance to return your own unit. And certainly you can't sage tidal faytis or cath tidal faytis.

Also, you forget to mention one thing: jewel floats your SP AND allows you to access your first soul earlier. This allows you to do things such as Jewel tidal faytis, and on top of that, where mediator SS is involved, hit a turn 2 SP drain, effectively making a 2-1 drop into a 2-2 drop, for a 3 SP advantage from tidal and faytis.

Or, if you want everything summed up for you:

ONLY JEWEL ALLOWS YOU TO DO LEVEL 2 UNIT, TIDAL, FAYTIS, WITH AN SS ONLY USABLE BY JEWEL, THEREBY GETTING COMPLETELY UNMERITED WINS AGAINST MOST FILES OPENING WITH A LEVEL 2 UNIT.

Thank you. Was that so hard to understand?

So no, Jewel the card isn't OP--but what Jewel allows you to do with other cards, that are already borderline strong, is cause for concern.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby gadu » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:54 am

All this talk about being empiricle and then nobody actually doing anything empiricle (just hypothetical) is making me sick.

Further, what is the point about talking about some treaure trove of data stashed away in the mythical Library of Regus? Those of us who actually know how to do something with data will never see it, making it as empiricle as the time I spotted Big Foot taking a shower in my bathroom. Take my word for it, I nerfed Big Foot because he was OP in requiring too much shampoo.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:59 am

A file reliant on level 2s would lose to most falkow with or without jewel. I don't think its appropriate to talk about tidal and faytis when they are only useful verse a small % of files.
Certainly its good if you're falkow to get to your souls quickly. What I don't understand is the distinction between good and OP. Something can be good, but not op.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby Icyman2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:05 am

gadu wrote:All this talk about being empiricle and then nobody actually doing anything empiricle (just hypothetical) is making me sick.

Further, what is the point about talking about some treaure trove of data stashed away in the mythical Library of Regus? Those of us who actually know how to do something with data will never see it, making it as empiricle as the time I spotted Big Foot taking a shower in my bathroom. Take my word for it, I nerfed Big Foot because he was OP in requiring too much shampoo.

Empirical. How did you get into med school?
I played around 50 games with pegasus pirates with ryu and I've won everything that is not mid refess with gaiessoul (aka dean's file) or a mirror jewel open or lawtia.
See, we shouldn't be talking about opness, because when we say opness, we mean something that consistently get top rp without much skill involved. We should be talking about how it locks some files and opens out of existence. Really it's like dg saying oh this is not op because there's this and this counter. If something is good vs something else, why the **** would you make something that makes that matchup even better? The fact that I can get 100% winrate vs certain types of files is proof that this should not exist. If alteil goes in the direction where everything is determined by how you open and what tribe you're playing, then I'll probably be quitting it.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:08 am

Actually dg made a good point. Sorry ilya. That's a good argument that the interaction between mediator ss and jewel is too strong.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby gadu » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:13 am

You could also make it so it refunds less than 2 SP when it closes.

Icyman2 wrote:[ I'll probably be quitting it.


You'll be back. They always come back.
Last edited by gadu on Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby Icyman2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:15 am

GonFreeces31 wrote:Actually dg made a good point. Sorry ilya. That's a good argument that the interaction between mediator ss and jewel is too strong.

You mean the fact that you can't get a level 3 out with a 2/1/3 open anymore? Instead it becomes 2/1/2 or 2/1/1. If it becomes 2/1/2, I would get a level 4 on the field and then faytis for a chance to get a level 2. I've been saying before that currently the timing of units is a valid way to dodge sp drain and get that vital level 3 on the board, which is what alteil is mostly about. Now, the only way to dodge it fully is to use a level 1 level 3 open. You can't even buncle t2 to dodge the drain.
Gadu, if you nerf it that way, it will never ever be used.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby AqvasFire2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:21 am

GonFreeces31 wrote:Actually dg made a good point. Sorry ilya. That's a good argument that the interaction between mediator ss and jewel is too strong.


I think this whole thread has honestly been about people talking past each other. In general, the idea of Jewel helping you to access your first SS quicker (usually an SP SS) so you can front load a couple of level 4s and try to leverage that jump into some advantage seems fair enough.

The issue that we indeed are talking about is the edge case of Jewel just giving a Falkow player an absurd advantage because the opponent dared to open with a level 2 unit that isn't pixy greatsword soldier or one that's followed by a shade. EG if I want to play beastmaster-supported monsters, a good open may be:

t1: 2 gowen, 1 falkow, man eating tiger.
t2: mermaid observer
t3: forest rhino
t4: azure beastmaster

Except if my opponent plays jewel first, he goes 3 falk, jewel.
Next turn: tidal my tiger, collapse the jewel, so my merm obs comes down and I get 2 SP next turn--not enough to play my rhino, and my tiger is gone.
Next turn: I'm at 2 SP and you drop faytis, thereby also returning my mermaid obs to my file. So let's just say I play a level 1 when you play the Faytis (exgirl, let's say).
So now, as I play rhino, you have Faytis and another level 4 to my level 1 and level 3. Already, the game is more or less out of reach for me just based on my set-piece open. The other 20 cards in our files suddenly matter far less.

That is the issue. The auto-win based on the first few turns. This was not possible prior to jewel.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:26 am

Yeah that's a really good point. Thanks for being specific and clear.
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