What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD spam

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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby gadu » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:17 am

AqvasFire2 wrote: possibly TJC (cut me a break).


True Jesus Christ?

I'm glad you found a way past the ban filters DG. Disguising yourself as a lesbian no less. ;)

Too many cards are unusable. There's a handful that are good, but not utilized, and an an even smaller amount that are waiting for the creative iczer to realize their potentional.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby Khiruki » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:20 am

gadu wrote:
AqvasFire2 wrote: possibly TJC (cut me a break).


True Jesus Christ?

I'm glad you found a way past the ban filters DG. Disguising yourself as a lesbian no less. ;)

Too many cards are unusable. There's a handful that are good, but not utilized, and an an even smaller amount that are waiting for the creative iczer to realize their potentional.


Actually, Tea, Juice, and Coffee. It's the breakfast beverage squad. Bringing you happiness in the mornings.

Milk is not an option.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby AqvasFire2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:34 am

TJC=Toromea, Justice, Catira, fools.

And gadu, the point I'm getting at is that cards that were previously OMFG BROKEN are now in that unusable pile. If Ruuca was released as the engage-yourself-forever-for-one-AoE right now, she'd be getting as much use as Addition. Which she currently is. AKA none. But of course, the errata team only remembers them when they were at their strongest, not that they are no longer getting any use, because oh hey, so are several hundred other cards, so post nerf, they're fine, and by "they're fine", we mean "good riddance and let's move onto the next sets so we can sell more cards".

See, the idea is to converge to balance. In computer science, a good algorithm can overshoot the solution and undershoot it in the same sequence as well. EG if you had to guess a number between 1 and 100, if that number is 62, you'd guess 50, be told it's too low, 75, too high, 63, too high, 56 too low, and so on until you got to 63.

The way the errata team works is "this card is OP!" *NERF* "This card is useless". "Meh, join the rest of the trash pile." Nowhere is it "we overnerfed something someone paid for, let's rebuff it".
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby Icyman2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:50 am

AqvasFire2 wrote:EXPrim (twice)
Elite Fencer (twice)
Emana (twice)
Bringer (twice)
Jack (twice)
Ruuca (once but to irrelevance)
Dilate (in two separate ways)
Serpent (twice)
Bog wyvern (twice)
Urgrant (not much of a nerf until you realize that it makes the bad matchups with Lawtia worse)
Mirelia (who's now unplayable at a top tier level)
Rhino (who hasn't seen use since)
RFA (that simply got nerfed against the already-bad matchups)
EXLap (to irrelevance)
Kaldrao (though he had it coming)

And I'm sure there are more on that list, but those are just the metas that the errata team has "de-trended" (to put it kindly) thanks to their bumbling efforts. How many viable metas do we have now?

Lawtia: augments, dolls, big lawt possibly, EN, possibly CMD dolls
Falkow: possibly pirates thanks to Jewel open, possibly serpent, maybe some urgrant variant?
Refess: mid refess, possibly TJC (cut me a break)
Gowen: possibly Beltorat. BKR is dead since it'll either eat shade and get wrecked by Lawtia or eat jewel tidal and get wrecked by Falkow. Pick your poison.


Let me comment on things during the era that I played:
Emana (twice)
I don't like the fact that she needs an open mermaid on the field. Merms is really hard to play in this era b/c of things like overdose spam and refess (they don't have damage). Really my original suggestion was to nerf her so she only works with mermaids. Well, now that you've done that, please roll back the changes on the -10 hp and needing an open mermaid on the field and not healing herself anymore. Otherwise, if opponent has fast things and rushes you, emana is dead weight on the water.

Bringer (twice)
So the second nerf was wholly unnecessary. The first nerf was okay, because unlike verlaat, his skill is target, and that means a lot for gowen which likes to do targeted damage (the more the better) in order to kill the last copy or get rid of last lp. However, if you compare open skills, it's quite obvious which one is better. 10 defense and a chance to dodge any engage stuff/stall the field until you get a major buffer/powerhouse on the field? If anything, his open damage should be 50.

Jack (twice)
His first nerf really didn't do anything. Maybe it made him even stronger because now there's less luck involved on where he can hit. His second nerf was necessary because his start was just bonkers with the bringer combo. For example against urgrant, you hit asuet, start damage. Use bringer open for free, start damage, and urgrant never gets to act. Although I originally advocated for a change to auto, I think a better choice would have been to keep it as a start and make him stop gening sphere.

Ruuca (once but to irrelevance)
She was the most broken unit in the game. She can die in hell for all I care.

Dilate (in two separate ways)
He is still a very solid unit if used correctly. Just needs more synergy with other cards, which I hope future sets will give.

Urgrant (not much of a nerf until you realize that it makes the bad matchups with Lawtia worse)
Completely valid.

Rhino (who hasn't seen use since)
Rhino nerf was not significant. How often do you use his skill at 10 or 20 hp? What difference does that really make?

RFA (that simply got nerfed against the already-bad matchups)
How was it nerfed against already bad matchups? It was an overall nerf. RFA ss compared to other disengaged return ss was MUCH better. Compared to say agi return (not 3 agi b/c you can't always set up those), you can set up rfax2 for 1 sp instead of 4 and potentially locking 2 sp (which becomes lp food late game). Sin can backfire and there's all sorts of ways to counter it. And it costs at least one sp. Plus, you can return things like bringer for free.

EXLap (to irrelevance)
Kaldrao (though he had it coming)
I still see ex lap now so she is not irrelevant. Kald needed that defense nerf, but at the same time, she needs more hp to survive those early hard hitters.
Those units were annoying to face because they snowball and heal and you can't break through them. I currently do not run anything, or very little, that have no way to deal with defense, so I'm not too worried.
The problem is the starters absolutely cannot do anything verse those units. They just snowball more and more. I think I've only defeated ex lap kald once in my gowen days, and that was because I used cassandra's 2 sp skill to max hp hate on them (twice in order to kill) and then timed my sin and zagar revive and do 60 damage to 2 units right. It was just a ridiculous experience fighting them. Of course, this problem can be solved if they change the new starters so that it can deal with defense (from what set 3 when lebeub ss was the qq ss) and then hopefully they can get a slight buff.


And yes to your new comment. I have paid for some of those cards. Some of them I want nerfed so I can actually play more files. Some of them I cannot play in this environment (because I like winning). I think there is a happy balance in which both urges are satisfied and the player who plays the smartest and packed the most flexible file wins.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:39 am

I guess I don't understand why you think dilate ruuca and jack are useless now? Have you compared them with other level 4 units?
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby Icyman2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:41 am

GonFreeces31 wrote:I guess I don't understand why you think dilate ruuca and jack are useless now? Have you compared them with other level 4 units?

I hope you're not talking to me. I think ruuca should be nerfed more. Dilate is just fine. Jack should get a slight buff (then maybe I'll spend more on the ex lotto to get him).
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:53 am

Yeah I respect your opinion a lot icy. I was actually talkin to dg tho. He has pretty extreme views.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby AqvasFire2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:56 am

I disagree about Jack first nerf not doing anything. Part of the reason that 3 range Jack was so good was that he could hide behind BKR and hit squishy ranged units, such as shrine knights, vosrot, salamanders, MD mobility, and lots of stuff that held up Refess files (whatever they were) that cowered behind some giant tank like guardian. As for Jack's start skill, that was exactly the point of it--he was Gowen's Emana/Elite Fencer/Blade Wyvern in that way. Lawtia just got their anti-agility-cheese unit with MD augment and look how wonderful she makes playing Lawtia rush. Refess always had anti-agility with guardian, who made swarming with fast squishballs a deathwish unless you had EX Yuni. Jack's start kept some ridiculous things in check such as just rushing out Urgrant with an MD Support and SP locking a BKR file. It kept Afel+word of dalos nonsense from happening. It provided some sliver of protection against agility-swarming type files (EN, shrine knights, buncles possibly). It helped in a few edge cases, but those few edge cases are the difference between a top tier file, and one with a glaring weakness.

As for Ruuca: from experience, I really disagree with your statement. I suppose this is because I deliberately played WK against Dilate/Ruuca so Storm Wizardess completely wrecked her, but Gowen was also effective with Sakura after she transformed. Lawtia could have used Lelein and now with set 11, Gaiessoul would make setting up Ruuca need a miracle fruit or fate of Esria to successfully pull off without just getting her cemmed. Falkow could just wreck her with a well-placed wrath or storm wizardess chain. As for Refess snowball rushes, they can use solar cage, pack a hand of god, and put in a rasam fourth SS. In the current environment, Refess least of all has any right to complain. The other three spheres were more than capable of dealing with prenerf Ruuca at every sphere level with the proper SSs (that were anything but Ruuca-specific). Except god forbid, it'd take some planning and not just blowing all your resources like she didn't exist. Also, I like her because the card art is amazing. Hot redhead+dragons, and the concept is just wonderful. No more squishy cowardly return-spamming Falkow iczer. Instead, eat dragons blasting your entire field every turn. Her concept was terrific, the card art was terrific, she had her downsides. The only faction that really suffered was Refess rush.

On RFA: what I meant was that if your opponent was coming at you with base level 5 units, the fact that the SS cost you 1 SP the turn after was irrelevant. If you hit him with 2 RFAs on two separate level 5+ units, you won anyway. The reason RFA fell into disuse is that in rush vs. rush, when that SS isn't so great, it becomes very poor when you're A) dependent on a grimoire that a tally mystic, smart ork, dagon (Gow fierte vs EN was next to unwinnable) B) playing Gowen rush, which uses a heck of a lot of subpar units (EG Kurina Tiger vs. MD augment and mobility, the Shrine Knights, or lycans).

As I stated before, a proper RFA nerf would have read:
"Return target unit of level 5 or higher to its owner's file. If that unit was base level 5 or higher, you get 1 less SP at the beginning of next turn." That is, if you had to fruit the unit to return it (that is, it was level 4 or lower), you would not be penalized the SP next turn.

Rhino nerf: fairy dance. Song for a hero. The former underused, the latter I have yet to see win a game. As in, ever. Also consider getting hit by 2x30, or a 40 dmg SS and then a wisp. All sorts of reasons why you want rhino to full heal and not just for 40 HP. And once again, I really have yet to see Rhino used much past his nerf.

Dilate: synergy with what units? At the moment, he's a level 4 that requires 6 spheres with level 4 stats. The 5 DF was fair given the Falkow requirement. I mean I suppose you can play him without the Falkow spheres and just treat him as a 4 agility 70 HP unit with a slash, but then he's just really meh and will die at the worst possible time.

Also, Icy, regarding your "most flexible file" comment. That's exactly my point. It's nice to have a bunch of cards that together, can stand up to anything. But when you take away Jack's ability to snipe back row units, Emana's ability to pinpoint her damage, Jack's ability to snipe speedy glass cannons, Elite Fencer's ability to set up a WK rush, you take away flexibility that were the foundations upon which those files were originally built. BKR rarely got serious play prior to Jack, and after Jack's nerfs, stopped being played. Similarly, Ruuca also provided a lot of flexibility as a sort of catch-all if you got past your opponent's opens and soul skills. And once again, the only part of the game that had no legitimate way of dealing with Ruuca was Refess rush. That's a pretty small subset of the game worth nerfing her into irrelevance over.

@ Gon: yeah, Ruuca's not all that great. Even pre nerf, your opponent could punish you severely before you got any benefit out of her. Now, not only can an opponent react with a whole bunch of different opens, but for all of the effort you put in into getting her past SSs, setting her up, whatever, they can just choose to take a fieldwipe from her and kill you right back when she's on cooldown. Also, she no longer can just keep paying 2 SP to constantly grind down larger opponents while fire dragon'ing them. Not intended, I know, but IMO if you were going big, you had the counters as it stood.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby Icyman2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:25 am

I did say synergy in later sets.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby AqvasFire2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:34 am

That's what I thought about Mulna and Addition. "Oh hey Mulna can potentially cem something for 2 SP, she just needs some good assassins to team up with." Still waiting.
Addition: hey, when multisphering gets easier, Addition might be a force to be reckoned with! Nope.
Belltia: I actually spent my first $ on Alteil for a set of this guy because I thought "well hey, a level 2 with level 3 stats if he has food, not bad, but he has potential with Violence." Well, we're still waiting for another Gowen undead beyond Dullin, who self-destructs a bit quick for my liking. Maybe when Ben MacLachlan gets here? If he's not junk and can fit into a Belltia file? In the meantime, Belltia's good, but not amazing.

Same deal with EXLap. Logress said she HAD to be nerfed because all units they released that were ref level 3 or lower with agi 1 or 2 had to take EXLap into consideration. Well, we're still waiting for those nifty units that would be utterly borked if they had that auto heal. It's been 5 sets, and aside from heavy knight and possibly spiked armadillo, we got nothing.

IMO judging a card based on some sort of nebulous potential isn't that great. Because often times, if you need something just slightly better, than the file without that "something slightly better" should still be playable, just a step not as great. Well, I've never seen Addition or Mulna used anywhere near tier 1 successfully, and EXLap is basically the worst way to play Refess now.
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