Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

User suggestions to improve the game

Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby Romdeau » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:56 am

And it only took 500 arguments and 20 pages for him to get it
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby methebest » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:29 am

Romdeau wrote:And it only took 500 arguments and 20 pages for him to get it

retards will be retards
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:02 pm

Actually demongod was the first person to make a clear, logical argument about exactly what is too strong - the interaction between jewel and mediator SS. Without mediator SS it wouldn't be a problem.

I guess I have higher standards for what a "clear argument" is, it's kind of a side effect of being in academia.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby Romdeau » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:03 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:Actually demongod was the first person to make a clear, logical argument about exactly what is too strong - the interaction between jewel and mediator SS. Without mediator SS it wouldn't be a problem.

I guess I have higher standards for what a "clear argument" is, it's kind of a side effect of being in academia.

Gon strikes again.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby sunbunman » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:42 pm

I'm just gonna steal one of Shiro's pics...

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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby hexagram » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:46 pm

Not only does jewel get to your first ss quickly If recovers the sp invested in it straight away so is even quicker than a normal sacrifical unit which has to close first putting you at a ap advantage straight away. So you can more quickly follow it up with multiple units then if you had to wait an extra turn. Plus it avoids shade. It is also guaranteed as even if opp does not atk it can close by itself

Combined with other ways to further your sp advantage like mediator ss and returning shenagins like tidal and fatyis as shown already it can give a big sp and field prescence that puts the opponent at a severe disadvantage for the rest of the game.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby fargone » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:51 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:Actually demongod was the first person to make a clear, logical argument about exactly what is too strong - the interaction between jewel and mediator SS. Without mediator SS it wouldn't be a problem.

I guess I have higher standards for what a "clear argument" is, it's kind of a side effect of being in academia.


Based in the empirical evidence provided in this thread, I have come to the conclusion that you truly are an idiot incapable of free thought. If only you understood English like the rest of us, you wouldn't be the subject of so much ridicule.

People, PLEASE stop trying to convince gon of anything. Who actually cares what he thinks? Even other testers think he's an idiot, and he is only 1 member of a team. The extreme thickness of his skull will only serve to frustrate you, as it has done for almost 20 pages.

God knows reading threads where you direct your arguments at him frustrates the hell out of me. His failure to comprehend normal sentences, coupled with his "what's a truck?" methodology of argument is insulting the intelligence everyone involved.


Academia, lol. Gon, you are probably the least education person that plays this game.
GonFreeces31 wrote:
fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


What, I make legit points too...
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby Scientiafide » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:36 pm

AqvasFire2 wrote:
GonFreeces31 wrote:I think lots of empirical evidence is needed to warrant an "over-powered" claim. I also think most of the complaints in this thread were about tidal, Faytis, and Mediator SS. I don't think Jewel is OP at all, but if Logress shows RP data suggesting that it IS OP, then I would believe you guys.

OR, if someone wants to show a side by side comparison of a traditional cath open to a Jewel open and show how Jewel is strictly better, I'd love to see that too.


You know what? I love how you guys talk up a big game about "if the data shows it", but when push comes to shove, Logress is an English major, you're a squishy psych PhD, Romdeau has a BS in that as well, and generally, the whole balance team is crap at data analysis and math (unless imortal is still around, but I have reason to be skeptical of him as well). The creator of M:tG, Richard Garfield, when he was creating it, was pursuing a PhD in UPenn in computational combinatorics, or some other crazy, off the wall graduate-level math, and so were some of his collaborators (I spoke to one once upon a time who helped him out and was getting a PhD in physics at UPenn).

Long story short? Even if you guys had the data, you wouldn't know what to do with it, and nor do I think you have the proper metrics to know what to do with it. There's a reason the erratas have been consistent failures--that is, they patch up the current set, until the next one comes out, and the environment is same crap, different cards. At the end of the day, the only common factor in all your failures is you. So yes, I'm calling you out, because you want to talk like you're a data expert, yet to my knowledge, everyone on the errata team just hasn't put in the time in learning data science/machine learning/etc. for me to take you seriously.

So in the meantime, I suggest you take the arguments in this thread with a bit more respect than you do, because what players experience is probably something they do a far better job articulating and pinpointing than you can with your half-hearted amateur data analysis skills.


Am I the only MTG player here? Are we gonna let this slide? If you seriously think MTG was balanced under Richard Garfield, you're sorely mistaken. Have you never heard of the Power 9? Sure you could argue that the mana generating ones may have not been a big deal back then, but Time Walk (your opponent skips a turn for just 2 mana? really?) and Ancestral recall were clearly overpowered. And iirc, he was on the design team during Urza's Saga. Where was his mathematical input then? Where was he to strike down Tolarian Academy? That set has been considered one of the biggest balance failures in TCG history.

I'm not trying to **** on Richard Garfield's record, if anything I love MTG and I consider him to be a great game designer. My point is that you're delusional to think a game can be perfectly balanced; you have unreasonably high standards. Hate to break it to you, but as long as new sets are released, this game will never be perfectly balanced. There will always be bad cards and there will always be OP cards, just like every other TCG that has ever existed.

Now am I saying balance has no place in TCG design? Of course not. But the more reasonable expectation of good game balance is not to prevent OP and bad cards, but to ensure there are a variety of strong, competitive strategies. Is this the case with alteil? Well judging by the variety of files piloted during tournaments (by players better than both of us), I would say that that is indeed the case.

So, unless you can do it better than Richard motherfocking garfield and prevent all op and bad cards from existing, I suggest you get off your damn armchair and stop insulting everyone involved. You just sound like an immense ****.

*drops the mic*
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby AqvasFire2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:41 pm

Tournaments? WHAT tournaments? There's no competitive scene in Alteil.

As for Richard Garfield, yes, I've heard of how OPOP those cards were. So even with such a smart guy at the helm, you couldn't have good balance. So what does that say about a few people who do this casually? Also, in the GC, so many of the games were decided before the first move was made. Frozenstar was ridiculously predictable and ate cyclones and Sergis on his EN. Worthing lost to Aces due to having worse files.

And also, if you have a bunch of files with polarized, cyclical (non-transitive) matchups, is that balance? Not really. Because if there's no point in playing the game, then that's no good.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby Peralisc9001 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:47 pm

I've done more research than anyone in this thread, thank you very much, and have concluded through factual empirical pragmatic observation of irrefutable data analysis that i am by far the most awesomely elevated person to have graced himself and others with his precious and yet frutious amazement of the greatness which i portray and of which you're lucky enough to even come close to appreciate for being in my presence.
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perhaps until the game is actually improved through change or perhaps forever since there are so damn many other games and better things to do @_@
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