What's with Refess's new ridiculous critters?

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What's with Refess's new ridiculous critters?

Postby AqvasFire2 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:17 pm

Namely, the trio of uberness, in order of greatest to least unprecedented:

1) Miffyre--long story short, she's completely unprecedented. 1 SP on auto with no floating requirement on a unit out of range of returns and 40 damage SSs (even + sala)? And on top of that, is a huge ally against EN? She basically puts Marduk and Urgrant to shame. Also, when you stop to think about it, perhaps the biggest gap between units in this game is between level 3s and level 4s. Level 3s can be rushed out multiple turns in a row and can go down to SSs. Once you start getting into the realm of level 4s, the game was not balanced around rushing them out every turn the way Miffles does. And when you consider that the level 4s she pumps out aren't just sum of their parts, but Refess units, who are notorious for getting exponentially stronger, you can see why she can become such an issue.

And that's just on the SP-genning end. As bonuses, she gives EN the proverbial finger (though I don't suppose that's a new development, Refess has always had Lawtia's number), and I'm not sure how much she affects the serpent matchup, though I don't have sympathy for Falkow in Refess matchups.

2) Phoenix chick--at first it looks innocuous, until you realize that this thing is a max-HP hate immune field-wiping AoE tank that if you can't do 120 damage to it in one turn, look out. The biggest issue about this card though is that for a run-of-the-mill level 5, it's a game changer against any strategy depending on concentrated sources of large damage (bigs, other mids). And if you want to really humiliate someone, spam holy shield on it.

3) Verlaat--it's not so much that he's unprecedented (Bringer), as the fact that A) he's almost as good standalone B) has a better action C) is in the sphere with the best and most SP-generating options and D) has the best combo buff in the game bar none (BKR doesn't come close to 9 ticks regularly). It's just that the reason people see him as somewhat fair is that when he comes down, is he your worry or the SP-generating miffles suddenly swinging at you for 40+, the Judie dishing out 70+ damage on her own (90 once you factor in her buff), or the 35+ damage guardian with 25 defense?

So, let's propose some nerfs:

Miffles:
Start->auto. At least gives you a chance to get your utility units back if you kill her before she can move.
Stats: put them into worse early-game baskets, take from better early game basket. 55 HP->35 HP. Agi 1->2. Range 2->3.
SP generation auto: requires 1 SP, generates 2, instead of 0->1. At least gives you a chance to disrupt her with things like shades, nightwings, gafc SSs, etc...
Basically, it'll force the mid refess player to actually tuck her away securely instead of just dropping her in behind the refugee citizens and then rushing out units that should not be rushed out.

Phoenix chick:
Close skill: lvl 6->lvl 7. Close skill conditional on max HP > 0 (I mean I understand why he gets his max HP reset, because he morphs from 30 to 90, but this is an oversight IMO). This should at least give an out for the few max HP-reducing techniques other spheres have (Nue, though not like EN needs the help, Cassie, Jack's trash action, Francis), as well as not make large single hits completely obsolete.
If that's not enough, make the action skill cost 2 SP as well. One-way 30 damage to your opponent's entire field for 1 SP? Um?

Verlaat:
I'm not quite sure what to do about this guy. Possibly remove the 10 DF buff on open? Drop his atk by 10? Honestly he seems to be more a symptom of losing to mid refess than a cause.

Discuss.
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Re: What's with Refess's new ridiculous critters?

Postby hexagram » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:57 pm

may as well nerf half of set 11 while your at it....


why refuss hate:) dg?

on a serious note we all know set 11 refuss is pretty powerfull

but then again a lot of other set 11 cards are powerfull too.
Last edited by hexagram on Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's with Refess's new ridiculous critters?

Postby Peralisc9001 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:00 pm

I was going to make a thread about the new refess meta myself. Mainly wanted to discuss and ask for hard counters, since folrart is cluttered with miffere verlaat guardian combos.

I like the new refess. It's very fun and enjoyable to play it, but when you play against it most of the time then you seriously need to think of the direct hard counters to it. Refess meta really needs to be put back to it's place somehow.


Personally i don't want to see it nerfed. Dunno why. It's as if i always wanted a tanky deck of uber stompage. @_@


I will restate what i said in previous posts and about anywhere in the game:
I wish i would have faced the many augment decks everyone complained about, instead of having to play the countless annoying refess mirrors. I've put playing refess on hold just because of that.
~ Retired ~
perhaps until the game is actually improved through change or perhaps forever since there are so damn many other games and better things to do @_@
http://www.educatinghumanity.com/2012/0 ... anies.html
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Re: What's with Refess's new ridiculous critters?

Postby gadu » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:18 pm

Phoneix and the buffs to Guardian from Jude and others don't let you fight back so often you just sit there pressing standby and getting beatdown every turn, spending SP to revive while opponent gets SP gen every turn. Most units have to spend SP to break through DEF, so this is another case of early game design looking retarded in light of stupid powercreep.

Owl got nerfed because somebody thought he was too good. Miff is better than Owl and Advent combined, so it really makes card balancers look incompetent.
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Re: What's with Refess's new ridiculous critters?

Postby AngelicDeath » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:36 pm

Aqvuasfire :). And Gadu,

Best thread in a long time- i like Worthing's guide as well. There really was hardly any testing done on set 11 if you ask those testers that actually show up in chat. The game was going under and most were probably like "why am i spending time balancing cards when the game is going away".

Miffyre is a serious problem. I always thought so. At least advents sp gen is an action skill. I like refess and I don't mind tough units (being a history buff i hate when you guys refer to defensive units as tanks as it is an oxymoron- tanks were used as spearheads and to produce breakthroughs) but these guys are a little over the top.

Why is it so hard to stick close to some formula when they develop cards?

At any rate I think the arguments you present are valid.
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Re: What's with Refess's new ridiculous critters?

Postby AqvasFire2 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:41 pm

Any thoughts on the proposed solutions?
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Re: What's with Refess's new ridiculous critters?

Postby AngelicDeath » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:50 pm

Well for what it is worth-my opinion they (your solutions)sound reasonable. Honestly, any sp genthat is an auto skill rather than an action skill should cost sp to gen sp. if it is auto then make it like 2sp to make 3 sp or something. I guess 1 sp to make 2 sp for a lv 4 is ok - think owl ratio or even ellie's but it is high.

I don't pretend to be a balancer or know what i s best. I just know something is OP when i see it in context and compared against other stuff.

Cheers,
AD
Nought's had, all's spent, Where our desire is got without content;'Tis safer to be that which we destroy Than by destruction dwell in doubtful joy.

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Re: What's with Refess's new ridiculous critters?

Postby Callonia » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:05 pm

demongod is a useless person, he insists its a good balance for bringer to have 3 rng and firearrow do x20 damage.
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Re: What's with Refess's new ridiculous critters?

Postby Icyman2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:16 pm

If opponent rushes out miffy, it's your own fault. If opponent rushes out archer scout or even crest orderly, it's your own fault for not having something with 30 attack 3 agi turn 1. If you would rush out something with high damage like idk ryu against miffy, then the refess player is utterly screwed. Now if you still insist any of those units are op, then let me play monsters vs you.
P.S. the whole point of using her is because she locks level ones. Look at dean's file. It's completely unbalanced but kills other mid refess files and even beltort kingdom. Instead it dies to things like en. What does it not have? Miffy.
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Re: What's with Refess's new ridiculous critters?

Postby AqvasFire2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:22 pm

Icyman2 wrote:If opponent rushes out miffy, it's your own fault. If opponent rushes out archer scout or even crest orderly, it's your own fault for not having something with 30 attack 3 agi turn 1. If you would rush out something with high damage like idk ryu against miffy, then the refess player is utterly screwed. Now if you still insist any of those units are op, then let me play monsters vs you.


Are you being sarcastic, Icy? Not every open starts off with a 30 atk 3 agi unit. As for rushing out Ryu vs. miff, even if you rush out Ryu, he won't kill her because of wisp. And then he'll just clobber the wisp next turn. And that's assuming you somehow got past the refugee citizens by turn 3 and had enough SP to drop Ryu. Which I know of no Falkow opening that kills them (I suppose you can tidal).

As for monsters, are you kidding? Return city, broski.
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