miff

User suggestions to improve the game

Re: miff

Postby AquasFire3 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:10 pm

Well dang if she is going to just have 35 hp she should be lower level. However i do believe her sp generating is very useful and can be considerd op vs certain decks. I would say more but i havent used new miffrye alot yet.
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Re: miff

Postby AqvasFire2 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:19 pm

Nope. All I did was rebalance her stats and take out of the most important one for a support unit (HP) and throw them into less useful ones (agility--AKA does it matter that you get the SP at agi 2 vs 1? Nope--and range (early on does range matter if you have no field anyway? Nope.))

For instance, once again, take mad priest. What if instead of 30 HP agi 4 range 3 20 atk he was 60 HP agi 2 range 2 20 atk? You could go shade and if you backlash, mad priest. And you could rest him right out of his drawback.

And that's basically what Miffles is in reverse, on steroids. She's an SP generator on auto with her stats sunk into the most important attributes for SP generators--HP (and df I suppose).
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Re: miff

Postby GonFreeces31 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:26 pm

Refess is supposed to have SP gen roughly on par with Falkow. Given the KP/Owl Sage discrepancy, I don't really see that much of a problem. Personally I don't think she should be nerfed. I'd like to see how strong she is after a Verlaat nerf.
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Re: miff

Postby WhiteDragon2 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:29 pm

AqvasFire2 wrote:Anttila and owl: Anttila requires 6 spheres compared to Miff's 4. Anttila has a measly 30 HP and is susceptible to return. Anttila doesn't generate her SP on auto and then turn around and smack something. Yes, you *can* pullermia (in fact, you probably have to), which means a very inflexible open with something like buncle/rileira (if you're afraid of the backlash)->pullermia->mermaid obs->anttila, whereas Refess can just go citizens charity miffles. So miff comes out a turn sooner, is far more sturdy, and can rest or hit back. There's no comparison. And owl just gets picked off like nobody's business by anyone running salamander, or even shades.

Actually miffy is a bit harder to set up than antilla rather than easier: moxie->antilla is the most common way to go (yeah shade.. I know, but isn't the end of the world if it hits you), not to mention dilate+returns+engage SS also make it hard to stop while giving double the sp as miffy per turn.
AqvasFire2 wrote:
Now, one other thing: notice how you don't see any of the other spheres playing viable mids or bigs anymore? There's a good reason for that--and it's miffles. Namely when it comes to a long, drawn-out game, Miffles will just wear you down with that much more of an SP advantage. She doesn't require floating SP (gives the finger to Lawtia), is level 4 (eat your heart out Falkow), and has the most Hp of any SP generator in the game (55), and on top of that, generates the SP on auto so she can even rest.

First of all I still see mid/big files now (though big refess has seriously diminished,big lawtia actually increased, mid/big gowen is still there aswell). Secondly it's not necessarily the explaination for you seeing less mid/big files when cycle mermaids and CFA were in the same set.

No comments from me on her being OP or not though, haven't decided yet as I haven't been playing gowen rush lately.
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Re: miff

Postby fargone » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:32 pm

Im not gonna get into a long winded debate over this, as I know that in alteil that is a fruitless exercise.

All of your arguments saying mine were invalid are themselves invalid. No, I have neither the care or concern to go into deep analysis of the reasons, I will leave that up to someone with more wind. You have my opinion.

I didn't mention gowen because gowen doesn't have any real penchant for sp generation or denial. They simply function with very effective units and grims. That is all they need and are, in a way the opposite of refess, who uses less effective stuff and greater cost, which is counterbalanced by sp gen. They don't have great stand alone units and generally suck without a field. A field that requires lots of sp the maintain.

I don't like your rebuild of her at all.


PS:
I have been enjoying some of your posts, but be careful not to get overzealous. Maintain your ability to post.


PPS: Ok I will address antilla being not as good... LOL (that is all)
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fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


What, I make legit points too...
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Re: miff

Postby GonFreeces31 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:39 pm

AqvasFire2 wrote:Miffles's power is absolutely unprecedented when it comes to SP gen.

This isn't a problem in and of itself. Falkow and Refess should have top tier SP gen capabilities. It's part of the color pie. So being "one of the best SP gen units" is not actually a problem. I mean it could be a problem if it's excessive, but simply being good at something a sphere is supposed to be good at is a good thing.
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Re: miff

Postby fargone » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:48 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:
AqvasFire2 wrote:Miffles's power is absolutely unprecedented when it comes to SP gen.

This isn't a problem in and of itself. Falkow and Refess should have top tier SP gen capabilities. It's part of the color pie. So being "one of the best SP gen units" is not actually a problem. I mean it could be a problem if it's excessive, but simply being good at something a sphere is supposed to be good at is a good thing.



Damn it, that's 2 things we agree on.
GonFreeces31 wrote:
fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


What, I make legit points too...
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Re: miff

Postby Callonia » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:55 pm

fargone wrote:
GonFreeces31 wrote:
AqvasFire2 wrote:Miffles's power is absolutely unprecedented when it comes to SP gen.

This isn't a problem in and of itself. Falkow and Refess should have top tier SP gen capabilities. It's part of the color pie. So being "one of the best SP gen units" is not actually a problem. I mean it could be a problem if it's excessive, but simply being good at something a sphere is supposed to be good at is a good thing.



Damn it, that's 2 things we agree on.



I'm curious, if u don't mind, could one of you two link me to this color pie?
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Re: miff

Postby AqvasFire2 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:15 pm

WhiteDragon2 wrote:
AqvasFire2 wrote:Anttila and owl: Anttila requires 6 spheres compared to Miff's 4. Anttila has a measly 30 HP and is susceptible to return. Anttila doesn't generate her SP on auto and then turn around and smack something. Yes, you *can* pullermia (in fact, you probably have to), which means a very inflexible open with something like buncle/rileira (if you're afraid of the backlash)->pullermia->mermaid obs->anttila, whereas Refess can just go citizens charity miffles. So miff comes out a turn sooner, is far more sturdy, and can rest or hit back. There's no comparison. And owl just gets picked off like nobody's business by anyone running salamander, or even shades.

Actually miffy is a bit harder to set up than antilla rather than easier: moxie->antilla is the most common way to go (yeah shade.. I know, but isn't the end of the world if it hits you), not to mention dilate+returns+engage SS also make it hard to stop while giving double the sp as miffy per turn.
AqvasFire2 wrote:
Now, one other thing: notice how you don't see any of the other spheres playing viable mids or bigs anymore? There's a good reason for that--and it's miffles. Namely when it comes to a long, drawn-out game, Miffles will just wear you down with that much more of an SP advantage. She doesn't require floating SP (gives the finger to Lawtia), is level 4 (eat your heart out Falkow), and has the most Hp of any SP generator in the game (55), and on top of that, generates the SP on auto so she can even rest.

First of all I still see mid/big files now (though big refess has seriously diminished,big lawtia actually increased, mid/big gowen is still there aswell). Secondly it's not necessarily the explaination for you seeing less mid/big files when cycle mermaids and CFA were in the same set.

No comments from me on her being OP or not though, haven't decided yet as I haven't been playing gowen rush lately.


I'm not talking about rushing out. I'm talking about getting in play and keeping alive. Are you really making the argument that Anttila is a better unit than Miffyre? Because that's the biggest nonsense I think anyone has heard. Anttila isn't out of return and SS range that locks your opponent's utility units and then turns around and starts hitting for very respectable damage once you get a couple of friends out. Yes, Anttila generates 1 more SP on action than Miff does on auto. And that's her one plus. Beyond that, Miff blows any other SP gen out of the water. It's not even close.

Does Refess *need* such an SP generator? I don't think so. I mean think about it--BKR functioned just fine going exgirl rapid BKR into Jack/Dandan into the other one into Bringer, and people still complained about it. What's to prevent mid refess from doing similar stuff and going Judie Guardian into Phoenix Chick/Verlaat? Not much beyond the fact that apparently some people want mid refess to have Verlaat coming down on a guardian, miff, judie, and etoile already on the field, so by the time you disengage form his open, you suddenly have a completely unstoppable force short of some sort of steady stream of Diondora removal.

And on top of that, remember that Miffles attacks, and for very respectable damage once Judie and/or Verlaat are involved.

As for the color pie, that didn't stop people from crying to the high heavens when Falkow had a unit with the same stats as the never-used Folrart Lady Paladin that countered agility (something very in-color for Falkow). That didn't stop people from wailing about Bringer, who did what Gowen does with crazy damage at a respectable agility and had a good open skill. That didn't stop them from crying about Mirelia, or any number of nerfs that laid so many metas low.
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Re: miff

Postby Callonia » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:40 pm

AqvasFire2 wrote:As for the color pie, that didn't stop people from crying to the high heavens when Falkow had a unit with the same stats as the never-used Folrart Lady Paladin that countered agility (something very in-color for Falkow).



STATS MEAN SHITS ITS THEIR ABILITIES THAT'S OP!

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I even laid it out in a screenshot so you can judge without bias and tell me which is far more useful than which. Hint, look at their abilites, not stats.

Protip: Vortex Stance.

Extremely unfair and rude towards Folrart Lady Paladin to be compared against Elite Fencer of Regus. There Fencer protects and tanks against so many threats like Afel, bringer, athira shin etc etc etc. While what Folrart Lady Paladin can do is take a hit and die in one hit against same units.

Elite Fencer of Regus protects your field from being field wiped while Folrart Lady Paladin can't even do that at all and she will die in that huge corpse pile along with other solar kingdom soldiers.

Elite Fencer of Regus at old Max hp of 60 with 30/30 ss just boggles the mind at how big of a tank she was.

If anything, Its extremely poor argument!

Elite Fencer of Regus USED to have even more stats than Folrart Lady Paladin while having an vastly superior start skill that protects you from many many many things, She cuddled you and protected you from your own badiness to the point where you couldn't see it and grievously compared those two units.

Shame on you dg, you made Folrart Lady Paladin cry.

And this isn't even mentioning the fact that elite fencer of regus can protect you against an 4 agi onani master dilate.


Edit: Have u even thought about Inghazi + Antilla combo? 8 sp in one turn generated by a combo ;) I don't know about you but 10 sp every turn over 3 guaranteed sp every turn can generate a bigger lead than miffy will ever hope to do, dropping lvl 9s every turn like it's nothing. Yes, it can backfire but it's one of falkow's theme, backfiring, you see it in their grimiores like the backfire grim and uh mark of failure that actually act like mark of failure.
Last edited by Callonia on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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