Giving all SP gen the Miffles stats treatment

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Re: Giving all SP gen the Miffles stats treatment

Postby CainHyde » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:50 am

Callonia wrote:Inb4 people start spamming miffyre like there's no tomorrow just to get her nerfed before running their secretly op files.

^This
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Re: Giving all SP gen the Miffles stats treatment

Postby AqvasFire2 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:36 am

Callonia wrote:So its balanced for lawtia to make sure the player that lawtia plays against have 0 sp and -1 sp for every next turn setting up an perpetual lockdown? But it's not okay for miffyre to protect against that kind of ****. I see.

And plus, she's a single card anyways. Go play EN or something and watch her die fast. Oh and she's a lvl 4 unit too.

While Urgrant and Marduk is lvl 4. But they can sp gen and one hit ko etc etc.

Wankers gonna ****.

Undodgeable SP drain is **** to me but it's okay for you to prevent an undodgeable sp generate. Well miffyre enable an undodgeable sp generation. Sucks to be lawtia wanting to stop that. Nightmare bird thingie.


Nightmare bird thingie. Nightmare bird thingie.

Nightmare given form.

Is this kid seriously justifying keeping miff as is because NGF exists? I can't recall the last time I saw that thing. And when I did, it just died to the first SS I threw at it.
As for Verlaat enabling, Verlaat is rarely the issue. Without Miff's SP gen, you don't have a freaking field of uber units to throw him onto. End of story. Miff is what rushes out all the mid refess stuff. Drop miff, pump out better units than your opponent, win. It's really that freaking simple.

Marduk needs an entire setup and floating SP to do what she does, and even after that, doesn't benefit from any atk buff if she wants to continue to SP gen. Urgrant as a rule of thumb dies pretty quickly since he's a lone unit, question being if he can give you a big enough SP advantage before kicking the can.

Miff is pretty tanky, hides behind sacrifice fodder, can rest off stuff, etc...

Once again, a proper nerf:
Start: auto
Auto: action
Range: 2->3
Agility: 1->2
HP: 55->35
action: heal back up to 20.

Look, there's no argument about miff being able to gen SP for free. There's no argument that miff should be able to hit back at some point in the game, which is two things that no other SP generators do (Marduk and Urgrant don't count, since they require special files around them). However, what's wrong with asking to get her squared away behind a tank instead of tanking early game pressure with her face and just brushing it off?

Or, if everyone is so enamored with miff, then how about giving the other spheres at least a fraction of this powercreep in their SP generators just by sinking all their stats into HP?

Right now, archer scout is 20 HP, 20 damage, 2 agility, 3 range, with an action skill that generates SP.

Why does she need 20 atk+3 range? Has anyone ever used her to attack? Why not take 10 of that attack and 1 of that range and 1 of that agility and sink it all into HP? That way, she's 50 HP 10 atk 1 agility 2 range. Put a dryad on her and she'll happily sit in the back excavating to your heart's content. And add a trait that she can't be targeted by level 1 grims, and we're good to go.

Similar, with Anttila:
3 range, 20 attack, 3 agility, 30 HP. Once again, the attack, range, and perhaps agility are extraneous. 10 attack, 2 range, 2 agility, sink those stats into HP.
60 HP, 2 agility, 10 damage, 2 range. And if you'd like, take off 10 HP just because. 50 HP, 2 agility, 10 damage, 2 range. We're not talking about auto SP gen so she can rest. We're not talking about some other units that'll give her epic attack. Just reshuffle her stats into the only relevant one that an SP generator needs.

Similar, with mad priest--you get the idea. As for mad priest sucking, well, it depends on who you're playing against. Put him behind some recurring tank (hellsmoke, EXCAK, Broken Virus), and if the opponent needs floating SP, he's in trouble. Of course, if you're vs. rush, you're in a whole heap of pain for playing him because your **** will get overrun.

Honestly, I think the Refess whiners are whining over nothing. One more nerf won't kill their precious bunny. Because let's have a comparison:

All other SP generators:
Have SP gen as an action
Have crummy HP
Are susceptible to returns
Can't hit back for beans
Don't have any bonus uber-support skills (locking out EN/great spirits for shelby song).

All I ask is that the "have crummy HP" be something crossed off the list for every one of them. MIff would still have a huge laundry list of advantages.
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Re: Giving all SP gen the Miffles stats treatment

Postby Callonia » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:50 am

no dg. Go take a long walk off a skyscraper.

Also tl;dr.
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Re: Giving all SP gen the Miffles stats treatment

Postby Icyglare » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:22 am

Well, it's because Archer is a lv2 unit

Antilla produces 2SP!! Maybe we should give her the MIff treatment so she only can produce 1SP (3SP if you no longer care about the 3gowen sphere), has agi 3, can use timestop and can hide behind returns, falkow units like ryu or gowen units like Dilate.

Everybody has their role in SP generation, Miff is in her Solar Kingdom role, if she receives another nerf, it's going to be really light like
[Auto] 1SP, Generate 2SP
or
Just loses Solar Kingdom typing.
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Re: Giving all SP gen the Miffles stats treatment

Postby AqvasFire2 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:06 am

Look, Anttila indeed does produce 2 SP. But at the same time, in Alteil, the most important resource isn't LP or SP or sphere levels--it's file space. And while Anttila is an SP generator, she isn't a tank. She isn't a beatstick because she doesn't have allies that buff her, and nor does she have an auto. She isn't something that locks your opponent's utility units.

Nobody is saying Miff's SP gen is OPOP. But a one-sided SP-gen requiring none in the bank thus allowing you to just drop level 4s end on end is justification enough for a level 4 unit.

What I'd like to see justified is
A: the fact that Miff can turn around and start swinging after SP genning thanks to Judie
B: the fact that unlike any other SP generator in the game (aside from advent), she doesn't collapse from a moderately-powerful attack
C: the fact that she LOCKS EN OUT OF THE GAME. No set phase prediction ala pixies needed.
D: that she qualifies to count general's orders, and receive solar kingdom buffs (Verlaat).

People are thinking I'm saying nerf miff because of her SP gen. No, I'm saying nerf miff because of all the other things she has that no other SP gen does.

And once again, Urgrant and Marduk don't count, because you don't just plop and start SP genning with them like you do any of the others, so it's an invalid comparison.
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Re: Giving all SP gen the Miffles stats treatment

Postby Pikeru » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:31 am

AqvasFire2 wrote:Look, Anttila indeed does produce 2 SP. But at the same time, in Alteil, the most important resource isn't LP or SP or sphere levels--it's file space.

If this theory were that valid, we wouldn't be seeing players spamming triple Shade or multiple different return effects. Theoretically all of these cards are -1 in that regard and Tidalwave is -2. This sounds like the type of logic a deck-destruction player would use. On a related note, nobody in Yugioh respects an empty jar player, they're considered lower than scum.
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Re: Giving all SP gen the Miffles stats treatment

Postby AqvasFire2 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:40 am

Romdeau wrote:Miffyre's usage and RP correlation is going to be monitored over the next few weeks or so to determine a harsher nerf is needed. We want to observe whether Verlaat was causing the mid-refess problems or if Miffyre is too enabling for a level 4 support unit. If she's still deemed to be too powerful after a few weeks of stat collecting, there will most certainly be another nerf.

If there is one, my current favorite idea is to reduce her survivability or to turn her auto skill into 1sp for 2 (auto). There is still quite a bit of time before Logress concludes one way or the other though.

The lock is also something else I'm thinking about, and what we should or could do with it. Removing it outright would be ludicrious, but would changing it to an auto be the simple fix that's needed? Too early to say.


Well, Rom, think about it like this:
If you've ever watched a mid refess game, Miff gets dropped turn 3-4. Verlaat comes down way later. Verlaat seals games, he doesn't carry them. Why? Because Verlaat uses resources, he doesn't generate them.

Also, why were you so light on the Miffles nerf, yet gave Ruuca such a hard one? Why did you give Dilate both the slash nerf and the DF nerf at once? Why was Verlaat given such a light nerf (there is next to no difference in his use now). Same deal with Phoenix chick. All the Refess nerfs were rather edge-case type events. As compared to the Jewel nerf (SP +2 at the beginning of next turn, meaning goodbye mediator SS, and then the SP=0 one, which I saw no rhyme or reason for), or the MD augment nerf, which is salient in just about any non-rush matchup on the close nerf, and very salient in rush matches regarding her HP.

Why the touch Refess with kid gloves yet give all the other spheres, for the past several sets, such heavy-handed ones (both Falkow level 3 agility manipulators are shadows of their first selves, Blade Wyvern never needed its nerf to begin with, Ruuca got destroyed. Gowen also suffered mightily)? Is it because "oh noes Refess wasn't getting enough play?"

Could it be because Refess just isn't an interesting sphere to play? Look, I've now played all four spheres and I can tell you that Refess is by far the least interesting and thoughtless to play. Plop a unit. Plop another unit. Plop yet another unit. And just continue to plop units the whole game through. No timing or tempo decisions ala Gowen (take out the tank this turn so you can attack the squishy supports, leave one of them at 10 HP so you can sala it next turn and keep opponent off-balance). No precognitive SP-use prediction ala Lawtia to hit your SP denies. No "do I use this return now or can my field hold up while I play another unit" with Falkow. Just "oh look, here's a unit, another unit, another unit, let me survive these first few turns so I can snowball and press attack FTW."

And the funny part is that all of Refess's tribes work in mainly the same way. Level 3 rush: get a bunch of units that all support each other and roll the opponent over in a giant yellow snowball. Mid refess: get a bunch of level 4 units that all support each other, play general's order, and roll the opponent over in a giant yellow snowball (except maybe consisting of two fewer units, but at all units being level 4-5 instead of 2-3). Big Refess: get two dragons (one being TR) on the field. Infinitely recur and win (not so much now with HP-snowballing SKs, DF-snowballing buncles, and AoE healing mid refess units with chick and verlaat DF buff).

Rom, all the other sphere act. They do something. Refess reacts. That's boring.

And Pikeru, I think you missed my point about card space. What I meant was that in your 25 cards, you want each and every one of those 25 to do as many possible things as they can. So if you have a well-rounded unit that can say, tank and agility-manipulate, it's a far better unit than the same one with 20 less HP that removes its tanking role.

The more roles that each of your cards serves, the better. All the other SP generators serve one purpose: to gen SP. Miff serves a ton more. Nerf her on that basis.
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Re: Giving all SP gen the Miffles stats treatment

Postby Callonia » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:45 am

Dilate also helps bkr abusers by saving them file space by having a tank and dpser at same time while acting like some kind of uber afel with his noob slash that can't be ignored hard to hurt at same time.

BKR also is an uber lvl 4 that have a refess feature that you hate with all your passion, a snowballing feature of +5 attack on auto and all bkr needs to do is just spam standby for two turns and congrats you just pwnt every single refess unit's penalties they take for synergy and snowballing.

Oh and it's optional for dilate to cast magic sword enchantment upon his onani sword, noobslashing whole 70 hp 10 def tank units from refess for 100 dmg. Oh wait, it also can cast ignition upon dilate and have him noob slash the whole refess row for 180 damage.

Ignition is Dilate's personal grimiore these days.

I dont' know, you have powerful and ubar units in gowen that barely got nerfed, and Verlaat was in action for less than a month and he got nerfed already while bkr is untouched.

Also bringer can heal himself back up to full and is selfreliant. Verlaat is dependant on teamwork but verlaat cant get teamwork to function because of bkr/onani/jerk noobing their way to victory.


It just takes some more time before noobs with their bkr that ragequit bkr will go oh wai ti still can spam bkr all the have to do is make very slight adjustments and remove a unit or two for new units and presto !

Bkr meta is still alive and more op than before and there's nothing in refess that can do anything about it.



Oh and bkr still overruns lvl 3 solar kingdom rushes just fine, just get dilate to act with her on field. There, i just told you how to pwn them.
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Re: Giving all SP gen the Miffles stats treatment

Postby Pikeru » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:50 am

AqvasFire2 wrote:Could it be because Refess just isn't an interesting sphere to play? Look, I've now played all four spheres and I can tell you that Refess is by far the least interesting and thoughtless to play. Plop a unit. Plop another unit. Plop yet another unit. And just continue to plop units the whole game through. No timing or tempo decisions ala Gowen (take out the tank this turn so you can attack the squishy supports, leave one of them at 10 HP so you can sala it next turn and keep opponent off-balance). No precognitive SP-use prediction ala Lawtia to hit your SP denies. No "do I use this return now or can my field hold up while I play another unit" with Falkow. Just "oh look, here's a unit, another unit, another unit, let me survive these first few turns so I can snowball and press attack FTW."

And the funny part is that all of Refess's tribes work in mainly the same way. Level 3 rush: get a bunch of units that all support each other and roll the opponent over in a giant yellow snowball. Mid refess: get a bunch of level 4 units that all support each other, play general's order, and roll the opponent over in a giant yellow snowball (except maybe consisting of two fewer units, but at all units being level 4-5 instead of 2-3). Big Refess: get two dragons (one being TR) on the field. Infinitely recur and win (not so much now with HP-snowballing SKs, DF-snowballing buncles, and AoE healing mid refess units with chick and verlaat DF buff).

Rom, all the other sphere act. They do something. Refess reacts. That's boring.

Your bias against Refess shines through more and more and your words are contradictory. You call Refess boring, claim it's mindless spamming of creatures every turn. You then follow it up by admitting that the sphere is reactive rather than proactive. A reactive deck means most matches tend to differ as your strategy adjusts to your opponent's deck and playstyle, to an intelligent player this is never boring. Likewise, it's been proven for decades that the majority of the most skilled of top players in every game have always preferred reactive control-style decks. Games such as MTG, Yugioh, Vs System, Final Fantasy(Tactics) and Pokemon to only name a few.

I agree that it is true that versatile cards tend to be the most useful and I understood your point all TOO well. My point isn't any less valid though, Shade and returns are single-use-only, which far from justifies the -1 you get for adding them to your deck. Rather the justification lies in how broken their single use effect is. Skullclamp was banned, all it did was draw cards. Raigeki only destroyed monsters(in a game where they don't have 3 lives mind you, making it less powerful than Cyclone). Giratina does little more than wall.
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Re: Giving all SP gen the Miffles stats treatment

Postby CainHyde » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:11 am

Now I remember why I love this forum poster, despite occasional (?) troll appear/posting.

Anyway... if Miffy gonna get nerf in the future, I hope it's just her auto become action so she can't SP generate while attacking/healing.
I think it's reasonable enough.

Hasn't really played ever since set 11 released so I don't know if she's as annoying as old Ex Lap.
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