Phoenix Chick still needs a nerf :p

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Re: Phoenix Chick still needs a nerf :p

Postby hexagram » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:26 pm

I really think it is absolutely fine now with the multiple nerfs
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Re: Phoenix Chick still needs a nerf :p

Postby AqvasFire2 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:17 pm

Honestly playing Mid Refess, I see next to no change in the file's play and flow. Isn't the point of a nerf supposed to be salient? As in, there are situations in which you would absolutely feel the nerf? The HP =30 on action skill barely changes anything. Against a swarm file, maybe they need 1-2 less hits, but vs. a swarming file, A) you probably shouldn't be playing the chick to begin with B) you just hit their entire field with burning wings anyway. What the heck do they have left that's going to pose a threat?

The biggest issue with Phoenix chick is that it's even better than new 5* Dilate at tanking stuff (EG you can't Raste it to put it down for the count).
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Re: Phoenix Chick still needs a nerf :p

Postby Callonia » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:28 pm

Alteil's goal rarity =/= power, i'd say they succeeded in this area.

Phoenix is low rarity while dilate is high rarity so shush there dg.

This is actually one of the goals so that they will get customers to spend because they'll know they'll get good cards to be competitive.
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Re: Phoenix Chick still needs a nerf :p

Postby AqvasFire2 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:30 pm

Callonia wrote:Alteil's goal rarity =/= power, i'd say they succeeded in this area.

Phoenix is low rarity while dilate is high rarity so shush there dg.

This is actually one of the goals so that they will get customers to spend because they'll know they'll get good cards to be competitive.


Rarity=/=power, but rarity=interesting effects. Dilate's interesting effect is that he could take a killing blow and come back to full health without using Lawtia's "send copy to cem" or Lycan regenerate mechanic. Now Refess gets this and on top of that, max HP immunity, with a field-damaging AoE? Um?

All I know is that if this card were in Gowen, you'd probably be raging mad.
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Re: Phoenix Chick still needs a nerf :p

Postby Callonia » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:33 pm

i'd be mad because refess i supposed to be able to take hits and swing back.

Phoenix chick is something that actually resemble that philosophy for the first time in vaguest sense after like 10 sets of nothing.

Gowen got a uber tank one set early before refess did.

quit yer whining dg.
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Re: Phoenix Chick still needs a nerf :p

Postby AqvasFire2 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:44 pm

Callonia wrote:i'd be mad because refess i supposed to be able to take hits and swing back.

Phoenix chick is something that actually resemble that philosophy for the first time in vaguest sense after like 10 sets of nothing.

Gowen got a uber tank one set early before refess did.

quit yer whining dg.


Wait, Gowen got an uber tank?

Do you know what the purpose of a tank in Alteil is, Callonia? Here's a very quick and easy answer:

To make your opponent press the REST button.

Know who already did that? Guardian. Vet Paladin. Brutal Mammoth. Spiked Armadillo. Know what they all couldn't do for balance reasons?

Survive max HP hate and overkill without losing a copy. Know why? Balance reasons. Also, know that the only other card that could survive max HP hate had his HP reduced from 50 to 40? And you want to justify your 90 HP monster having immunity against max HP and overkill?

Yes, let's just eliminate straight Gowen while you're at it from the game.
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Re: Phoenix Chick still needs a nerf :p

Postby Scientiafide » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:01 pm

AqvasFire2 wrote:
Callonia wrote:Alteil's goal rarity =/= power, i'd say they succeeded in this area.

Phoenix is low rarity while dilate is high rarity so shush there dg.

This is actually one of the goals so that they will get customers to spend because they'll know they'll get good cards to be competitive.


Rarity=/=power, but rarity=interesting effects. Dilate's interesting effect is that he could take a killing blow and come back to full health without using Lawtia's "send copy to cem" or Lycan regenerate mechanic. Now Refess gets this and on top of that, max HP immunity, with a field-damaging AoE? Um?

All I know is that if this card were in Gowen, you'd probably be raging mad.


I disagree, cards should be interesting to play regardless of the rarities involved.

Rarity should dictate useability, complexity, and/or purpose though. Low rarity cards should generally be simpler to use, and more general in use (so that they can be put in multiple files). High rarity cards should be more specialized in use, and are good candidates for more complex cards.

For example, Sumer is undeniably a strong card, but is absolutely useless without dolls to play with it. When put in their optimal environments, character cards that are specialized in nature like Sumer are often more powerful than units (which is acceptable considering the limitations and handicaps placed on characters over units). These cards help enhance certain file types. Cards like phoenix chick, shade, and return are general enough that they can be played in multiple files. This is of course a sweeping statement, there are several cards that break the rule but I feel it's a good rule of thumb to follow for most cards.

Now I'm not arguing that phoenix chick isn't op, but I think it's also worth noting that Dilate is often played outside it's specialized environment (as a Gowen/falkow wizard kingdom tank). When you put dilate into the context of what he does for WK, he's actually stronger than phoenix chick. Dilate may not tank like the chick, but with the right combos and situations can often deal much more damage in aoe with his slash attack, while buffing the attack of every allied WK. You also have to remember that Dilate is a lvl 4, while phoenix chick is a lvl 5. Regardless of rarity, lvl should be an indication of general power since you're paying more to play the card.
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Re: Phoenix Chick still needs a nerf :p

Postby Scientiafide » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:17 pm

AqvasFire2 wrote:
Callonia wrote:i'd be mad because refess i supposed to be able to take hits and swing back.

Phoenix chick is something that actually resemble that philosophy for the first time in vaguest sense after like 10 sets of nothing.

Gowen got a uber tank one set early before refess did.

quit yer whining dg.


Wait, Gowen got an uber tank?

Do you know what the purpose of a tank in Alteil is, Callonia? Here's a very quick and easy answer:

To make your opponent press the REST button.

Know who already did that? Guardian. Vet Paladin. Brutal Mammoth. Spiked Armadillo. Know what they all couldn't do for balance reasons?

Survive max HP hate and overkill without losing a copy. Know why? Balance reasons. Also, know that the only other card that could survive max HP hate had his HP reduced from 50 to 40? And you want to justify your 90 HP monster having immunity against max HP and overkill?

Yes, let's just eliminate straight Gowen while you're at it from the game.


Ex Cak isn't a good example to use. The unit's lvl 3, and can also benefit from stat enhancements (which is common with undead). Phoenix chick is lvl 5 and gets it's stats reset regularly upon closing.

But yea I agree with you in that the refess was way better than people gave it credit for pre set 11. Vet Paladin in particular is a really good tank. Personally, I feel there's nothing wrong with refess having the best tanks in the game as it's the defensive sphere, so I don't know why you're making these comparisons.
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Re: Phoenix Chick still needs a nerf :p

Postby AqvasFire2 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:35 pm

Scientiafide wrote:
AqvasFire2 wrote:
Callonia wrote:i'd be mad because refess i supposed to be able to take hits and swing back.

Phoenix chick is something that actually resemble that philosophy for the first time in vaguest sense after like 10 sets of nothing.

Gowen got a uber tank one set early before refess did.

quit yer whining dg.


Wait, Gowen got an uber tank?

Do you know what the purpose of a tank in Alteil is, Callonia? Here's a very quick and easy answer:

To make your opponent press the REST button.

Know who already did that? Guardian. Vet Paladin. Brutal Mammoth. Spiked Armadillo. Know what they all couldn't do for balance reasons?

Survive max HP hate and overkill without losing a copy. Know why? Balance reasons. Also, know that the only other card that could survive max HP hate had his HP reduced from 50 to 40? And you want to justify your 90 HP monster having immunity against max HP and overkill?

Yes, let's just eliminate straight Gowen while you're at it from the game.


Ex Cak isn't a good example to use. The unit's lvl 3, and can also benefit from stat enhancements (which is common with undead). Phoenix chick is lvl 5 and gets it's stats reset regularly upon closing.

But yea I agree with you in that the refess was way better than people gave it credit for pre set 11. Vet Paladin in particular is a really good tank. Personally, I feel there's nothing wrong with refess having the best tanks in the game as it's the defensive sphere, so I don't know why you're making these comparisons.


Why? Because Gowen's was doing the same exact thing and arguably not as well (chick ROFLs@your Raste), yet Gowen's got nerfed when he needed more spheres to work than the chick AND has an action skill costing twice the SP/sphere levels while doing comparable damage.

As for Dilate in Gowen WK, A) Gowen WK doesn't exist. Only magic sword merc girl, and is she really worth slowing down a WK's pace? B) the idea of Dilate "tanking" for Gowen WK is laughable. If they're spamming the crap out of units with Dilate, 1) his slash won't work since it demands being outnumbered and iczers won't have the resources to use his slash 2) then the proper move would be to attack the crap out of them anyway since the likelihood of hitting some other unit is going to be high 3) you can't tank targeted SSs or opens.

Also, tanks are supposed to protect squishball support units, and those squishball support units are supposed to support the tank. The reason that Refess has such fantastic stuff going is that you have Guardian tanking for etoile (heals guardian), Judie (heals guardian, buffs guardian's attack, and also, can tank a hit herself! 60 HP is no freaking joke!), Aliria (oh hey you just dropped my tank? Now do it again please.), EX BP (uber tank!), and so forth. Sure, even if Dilate may tank for WK, what WK unit is going to support Dilate? If there were some WK unit that had "the WK in front of this gets DF+10 and atk +20" that was herself (and I say herself because Judie/Etoile/Aliria are all girls, so go with it) not a pushover in terms of HP, you probably wouldn't hear the end of it.
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Re: Phoenix Chick still needs a nerf :p

Postby Scientiafide » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:02 pm

You're arguing like hp and tanking ability is the only ability that matters in this game. Those refess units have high hp because that's refess' thing. Refess is also supposed to be the best sphere at having units support each other. They have weaknesses to compensate for these abilities. Dilate has higher attack capabilities, because that's what gowen's about (offense). We keep calling dilate's ability a "slash" when it's really a super slash of sorts (which costs 1 sp and 1 sphere as opposed to the traditional 2 sp of slash). It deals 2x his attack power, and he also has combo potential due to his other inherent abilities (like with ignition for example). And personally, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Now if there was a refess unit that you could simply drop and deal the same amount of damage dilate deals by itself (without any support), then I'd be the first to agree that there's a problem. If you want to argue that these abilities are too strong for the game in general, then that's a different matter all-together, but using other spheres as a comparison to what's supposed to be one of refess' strengths (hp and tankiness) doesn't make any sense.

Also my point with Gowen WK was not that it's a strong file or anything, or that it has strong units, but that Dilate's abilities are magnified when played in that type of file (since his +attack buff affects more units) and that Dilate is often played out of this intended environment. All that being said dilate is still a strong unit, I can't think of any lvl 4 that has his combined speed, durability and potential attack capabilities even without his falkow boost.
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