Lawtia and falkow level 2s 3s needs balance

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Lawtia and falkow level 2s 3s needs balance

Postby Icyman2 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:16 am

When was the last time you saw Lebeub used in a top rp file? That's right. What about Mage knight?
I think all of them need to be rebalanced so i see less of elite fencer and more of magic scythe soldier. Plus the falkow sphere need more of the subtype crossover that lawtia has.
I haven't thought about specific balance changes yet but fee free to add.
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Re: Lawtia and falkow level 2s 3s needs balance

Postby Anima13 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:36 am

The issue is unfortunatelly not that simple.
first of all its dificult to judge lawtia cards normal performance cause currently refess is very much in. Lebeau is a very good speedy unit with decent dmg output. If falkow is out of agi control speedy units are a huge issue and gowen has to take the hit.
Mage knight is still one of the better WK cards.

and "TOP RP file" is not a really good mesurement cause top rp is very much depending on the current decks played (which never covers the full spectrum).

about certain "buffs" lawtia has really no issues with its lvl2s. Falkows lvl2 mainly need more units that support the theme and likely motivate players to actually play a lvl2 rush (note also ex wizard archer is a rare card).
About the lvl3s again its difficult.
falkows are usually about 40 (more standalone) to 50 (field oriented) hp. their dmg output is weak without complete field support or sp advantage. but you can solve this aslong you win the sp game. There are also some dmg specialists in wk but they are rarely used. Loosing to gowen is standard. But if the tankiness of in other spheres keeps increasing we need to thing about the attack.
same with lawtia: lawtia has sp drain, thus similar to falkow lawtia should be forced to go for field with its lvl3s (here due to tankiness issues). And there I am slightly tending to question the tankiness that sometimes is present in lawtia. But again, those cases appear when the deck is field oriented.

But I give credit, with the increasing hp/defense power some of the field oriented units concept should be overthought. I am just not sure if we really need buffs and not just new units.
Honestly where i rather see the real issues appearing is at the lvl4s of these spheres. Maybe i open a thread for this :D
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Re: Lawtia and falkow level 2s 3s needs balance

Postby Peralisc9001 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:30 am

Wild dogs need a slight change. The black hound and the summoned hound need some little extra.

I'd like to see wild dog type be as meta as carbuncles are now.
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Re: Lawtia and falkow level 2s 3s needs balance

Postby AqvasFire2 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:07 pm

Elite Fencer isn't used because it's good. It's used because it's the most reliable way Falkow has of not losing the agility race to SKs, buncles, or dolls. Mage Knight is junk because he hits like a wimp. Magic Scythe soldier, spell lancer, rapier fencer--all of those units are trash because they also hit like wimps unless in the case of rapier you use a one-time sylph or clog your file with song sorc (oh hey a 20 HP unit that costs 1 SP to revive and doesn't do crap if you lose rapier).
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Re: Lawtia and falkow level 2s 3s needs balance

Postby Peralisc9001 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:12 pm

Well plenty of tribes have very many units and as long as the cardfile is 25 slots only, you can put at most 6 units with 3 copies each in your file and that if you ignore grims and great spirits or other support units.

This is a toy soldier game and not really a card game. In a card game you draw cards randomly and your hand doesn't equal your deck and also you got FAR MORE SPACE while at the same time not depending on 3 copies of each unit.

So units should be also considered to do various stuff and perhaps have situational good skills.


see in LH you have 30 card deck that isn't dependent on 3 copies of a card
in fact single copies are far more frequent because of variety
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Re: Lawtia and falkow level 2s 3s needs balance

Postby GonFreeces31 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:17 pm

You need to think about the functional goals of the sphere, and in context, do the cards function work towards that goal.

Part of the story here is that lawtia and falkow spheres are not designed to win games by traditional beatdown approaches that other spheres take. Lawtia is supposed to win with timing/high impact moves like crest spy, bitter destiny or deaths embrace, etc. Falkow relies on winning by constant game manipulation. A lot of falkow and lawt cards seem weak, but that's only cause they aren't reliant on insane buffing or direct damage to win games.
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Re: Lawtia and falkow level 2s 3s needs balance

Postby Peralisc9001 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:20 pm

Actually lawtia was supposed to debuff, but it's not an option since most debuffers and even corruption are costly and basically frail.
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Re: Lawtia and falkow level 2s 3s needs balance

Postby angelspawns » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:06 pm

Lawtia has units that are often more SP efficient. Meaning even if they die they still do damage.(example: Lebeau/CrestHalbert/Zujyuva) They auto-resurrect at no SP cost(example: undeads) and still be fighting. It actually has most "no revive costs" choices of all spheres, tho admitted they're not easily combined to fit into all files. (Annarose/Eskatia/MDAug/MDMobility/Fran/Domina)
Next to this they can lower the opponents SP pool, creating real issues for them to set up their field as fast as they do. Backed up by some of the most powerfull Grims that instantly can turn a match around.

Lawtia is NOT weak. But if you want you can always play without understanding its tactics, use weak units, and keep pretending it is. More then anything a good understanding of SP flow and timing is vital. Hitting at crucial moments.

Falkow is another story all together. Falkow is a 'counter' sphere. In the sense it has been given end-all solutions at their disposal to stop a threat when it arises. Engage, as is suposed to be a Falkow trait, is an end-all solution to stop a unit from performing. Return is an end-all solution to stop a unit from performing. Falkow simply stops other units from performing. A good Falkowplayer -rush vs rush- will never allow the situation where his units actually go 1 on 1. It creates situations where its units go 2 on 1, or even better.
This is however Rush vs. Rush. Falkow has serious problems when you're going Mids~Bigs. Both to fight against, or to play as Falkow.

For Falkow to change however, these instant solutions somewhat need to make way for a stronger fieldpresence. The balance within the sphere itself how they solve problems needs to be adressed, because countering others field with both these mechanic(s) AND equally~stronger units leaves unfair advantages over other rushes they can't overcome.
With 'make way' i mean it in the sense of giving others some good counterplay options, or straight out nerf the effect of the mechanic/cards.
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Re: Lawtia and falkow level 2s 3s needs balance

Postby GonFreeces31 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:31 pm

angelspawns wrote:For Falkow to change however, these instant solutions somewhat need to make way for a stronger fieldpresence.

This is what we always disagree on. You think that the spheres need to be more average - as in they need to be more similar. Stronger field presence boils down to stronger buffing and tribal synergy. There is another argument to be made that this is how games become boring with too many overlapping units.
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Re: Lawtia and falkow level 2s 3s needs balance

Postby Icyman2 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:56 pm

I didn't really need a guide on how to play the game here. Obviously the 40 hp units see more play than the 50 hp units in falkow, so we should make the 50 hp units stronger. Half of them don't even have any abilities to speak of. It's a balance thread and not a nerf this sphere and buff that thread to make the game more interesting.
Lebeub is not good because his close do too little. Perhaps take away 10 hp or 10 attack and give him 10 more dmg on close. But I mean things like broken virus and hellsmoke or ex cak. I haven't used hellsmoke as a tank since talisman of disruption came out and I would rather have the 3 effective stats more from broken virus. Since ex cak saw the nerf, it has never been off the ud list. It's not that it's not a strong unit of course, it's just things like talisman of disruption or Exo doll, which you can't use in the same file as an undead, make it not good to play. If you get talisman'd, you've lost a fresh unit, have to sac it early game and mess up your sp flow (what to do with 7 sp next turn) and refess basically won.
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