A Quick View of EX 11

Strategies and Card File Construction

Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby Romdeau » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:04 pm

Brahma is the only EX that didn't make the updated UD list-when in 99% of cases, recently released EX cards make the UD list after its first update with their release on live.
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Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby gadu » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:48 pm

Does that mean that nobody is using the cards or nobody bought the cards? :twisted:
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Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby Romdeau » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:49 pm

Usually means not enough data collected to justify removing it even if it qualifies in terms of usage and win %.
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Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby GonFreeces31 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:01 pm

Oeste is really good because of Miandela SS. Def worth buying just for that OP combo.
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Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby Romdeau » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:03 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:Oeste is really good because of Miandela SS. Def worth buying just for that OP combo.

Just stating for the record that the AGI=3 clause has become much easier to use due to this release and possibly future releases. If the data reflects what I suspect, this return ss will probably be brought in line with the rest of them (adding a -1sp next turn clause to it). This soul was released when it was significantly more difficult to achieve the condition needed to activate it, those times are no longer with us now.
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Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby DeeGee » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:25 pm

Romdeau wrote:
GonFreeces31 wrote:Oeste is really good because of Miandela SS. Def worth buying just for that OP combo.

Just stating for the record that the AGI=3 clause has become much easier to use due to this release and possibly future releases. If the data reflects what I suspect, this return ss will probably be brought in line with the rest of them (adding a -1sp next turn clause to it). This soul was released when it was significantly more difficult to achieve the condition needed to activate it, those times are no longer with us now.


What the hell?! No! Oeste with Miandela is still a massive gamble. If sin backfires, you sac a great spirit. No big deal. The times RFA backfires is countable on one hand (you played Bringer, your opponent used charity). But if your opponent charities and you have some agi 3 units on the field (elite fencer+exwiz+pegasus, for instance), you can wind up costing yourself the game very easily.

Furthermore, what about agi 1 or agi 5 units? Can't reach them at all with Oeste.

And would you stop nerfing SSs because there's one condition which must be used on that turn to activate it? The SS slots are worth between 2-3 SP depending on how you see it. If we use witch SS (+2 SP), asuet/distrier, and PoM/Lucia/Shvara as balancing factors, then by using a removal SS, you already are forfeiting 2.5 SP. On top of that, you also are using a set phase (also has some SP value--as lock pixies clearly showed), and on top of that, spending SP on whatever it is you're playing, or sacrificing a unit (sin).

IMO this makes removal SSs actually pretty mild, generally speaking, as compared to having something like a Gafc or rasam there. The only reason these removal SSs are at all justified is that some files (such as WK) have glaring weaknesses to files that use very big units (level 6+) that they absolutely must use those SSs to deal with.

Against rushes, removal SSs even without any added SP costs, such as those found on Metia, Ladol, RFA, Raste, Bastandora, or Sin (if you count the sacrificial unit) are actually some of the worst SSs you can possibly use. And, when considering bigs, welp, Volcano Wyvern, Allind, True Retear, and Star Dragon are all agi 3 already.

IMO removal SSs need to be changed around so they're not such a huge liability vs. rush files, since the only reason for them to even be justified is the occasional fighting chance against someone running dragons.
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Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby GonFreeces31 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:31 pm

It's about the relative power of Miandela SS with other return soul skill combos. Ladol and Raste require open skills and cost the user 2SP, even in cases where they backfire. Miandela works, most of the time, with an open skill and 0SP cost. When it backfires, it costs 0SP.

It has nothing to do with how effective these souls are against certain files, but everything to do with their cost and their effect relative to each other.
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Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby Callonia » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:33 pm

DeeGee wrote:IMO this makes removal SSs actually pretty mild, generally speaking, as compared to having something like a Gafc or rasam there. The only reason these removal SSs are at all justified is that some files (such as WK) have glaring weaknesses to files that use very big units (level 6+) that they absolutely must use those SSs to deal with.


So you forfeit 1 sp and 1 lp.

Opponent forfeits field presence, 1-9 sp.

Seems legit.
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Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby DeeGee » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:46 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:It's about the relative power of Miandela SS with other return soul skill combos. Ladol and Raste require open skills and cost the user 2SP, even in cases where they backfire. Miandela works, most of the time, with an open skill and 0SP cost. When it backfires, it costs 0SP.

It has nothing to do with how effective these souls are against certain files, but everything to do with their cost and their effect relative to each other.


Most removal SSs are actually, in expectation, pretty bad. Once again, let's do some math.

Soul skill slot value: 2-3 SP (ceiling of 3 SP because of Orthos, Shvara, PoM, Lucia, floor of 2 SP thanks to witch/pixy dual wielder/etc.) Let's go with 2.5 SP
Set phase value: less for large files that can do lots of damage with one card, very valuable for files that depend on many units. Let's go with 1 SP.
Cost of activation/sacrificial grimoire/unit: 1 (miracle fruit/great spirit) or 2 (Oeste). Let's just go with 1.5 SP for round numbers.

So now, before we factor in negative SP from the soul skill or the fact that your opponent can dodge it through some very cheap grimoire (faerie blessing for engage types, shear winds/charity/time stop for the disengageds), we're already in the territory of disjunction. AKA if you're removing a guardian, say, with Raste's SS, welp, it seems good because you didn't need to set anything, therefore you played whatever you wanted and didn't forfeit a set phase, so you just get the -2 SP drawback. So it cost you 4.5 SP to return a level 4. Now if you just get a single unit kill in that turn, your SS put you ahead.

However, consider having to play undine to return some unit with Raste SS. So now you forfeit your set phase, have to spend SP setting something to meet conditions for your SS, and on top of that, get the -2 SP afterwards. That's around a 7 SP value total--which actually makes sense for WK because they can deal with rushes with return grims, but get wrecked by bigs. So they spend 7 SP to return a wyvern or a dragon emperor. Return a DE and you're already up 2 SP. Return the wyvern, and you may have saved yourself 2-3 SP revive costs.

However, the problem is that these SSs hit you with their drawbacks even if you return a forest rhino. In which case, you would probably be much better served playing a return grim, and having some other SS there to deal with whatever is left on the field.

The fact that Miandela/Astaforse don't suck as badly as the ref/falk ones from the same set is no excuse to throw them down there. If it weren't for bigs, return SSs would be completely useless, even though the majority of the units in the game are rush units, which return SSs are already fantastically bad against.
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Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby gadu » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:57 pm

Rom,

I think the majority of SS that target more than one unit are random target. I was wondering what your opinion was about Rasam engage SS and whether it should also be random target or not?
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