A Quick View of EX 11

Strategies and Card File Construction

Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby GonFreeces31 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:59 pm

DeeGee wrote:Most removal SSs are actually, in expectation, pretty bad. Once again, let's do some math.

Soul skill slot value: 2-3 SP (ceiling of 3 SP because of Orthos, Shvara, PoM, Lucia, floor of 2 SP thanks to witch/pixy dual wielder/etc.) Let's go with 2.5 SP
Set phase value: less for large files that can do lots of damage with one card, very valuable for files that depend on many units. Let's go with 1 SP.
Cost of activation/sacrificial grimoire/unit: 1 (miracle fruit/great spirit) or 2 (Oeste). Let's just go with 1.5 SP for round numbers.


a) Soul skill slot value is 2SP standard.
b) You need to distinguish between refundable and nonrefundable costs. Spirits cost 1 short term, 0 long term. miracle fruit costs 1 short and long term.
c) Your SP value on a set phase is totally arbitrary.
The True Hero / Callonia
User avatar
GonFreeces31
 
Posts: 9322
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:20 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby Icyman2 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:04 pm

lol gon nailed it
Image
User avatar
Icyman2
 
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:22 am

Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby DeeGee » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:42 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:
DeeGee wrote:Most removal SSs are actually, in expectation, pretty bad. Once again, let's do some math.

Soul skill slot value: 2-3 SP (ceiling of 3 SP because of Orthos, Shvara, PoM, Lucia, floor of 2 SP thanks to witch/pixy dual wielder/etc.) Let's go with 2.5 SP
Set phase value: less for large files that can do lots of damage with one card, very valuable for files that depend on many units. Let's go with 1 SP.
Cost of activation/sacrificial grimoire/unit: 1 (miracle fruit/great spirit) or 2 (Oeste). Let's just go with 1.5 SP for round numbers.


a) Soul skill slot value is 2SP standard.
b) You need to distinguish between refundable and nonrefundable costs. Spirits cost 1 short term, 0 long term. miracle fruit costs 1 short and long term.
c) Your SP value on a set phase is totally arbitrary.


a) 2 SP standard? So should dragon breath be doing 40 damage if asuet and distrier give 1 SP? Should a two-turn engage be 1 SP thanks to Emana?
b) In the long run, either you or your opponent is dead. Great spirits cost 1 SP short term, 1 LP long term. I'm putting 1 LP = 1 SP.
c) Was my valuation of a set phase too much? Clearly it's worth something, otherwise you could be locked the whole game, and so long as you had the SP, dump an entire field of units on the board and win, right? Wrong. The time value of set phases is worth something in SP. Punishment hole puts locking your opponent out of his entire file (75% of the time) at a 2 SP value. So between .5 and 1 SP for a set phase seems about right, according to punishment hole. Am I missing something?
DeeGee
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:47 pm

Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby Callonia » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:56 pm

So that means Flash bolt should do 80 damage for 2 sp. DG argument is bad.

And instant revival should revive two units instead of 1.

Or give it the zagar's soul skill ability.

Soul skills is different from grimiores and units.
User avatar
Callonia
 
Posts: 4802
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:49 am

Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby DeeGee » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:58 pm

Callonia wrote:So that means Flash bolt should do 80 damage for 2 sp. DG argument is bad.

And instant revival should revive two units instead of 1.

Or give it the zagar's soul skill ability.

Soul skills is different from grimiores and units.


Instant revival is effectively anttila's SS, though I wouldn't mind combining IR and heal into one card.
DeeGee
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:47 pm

Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby Anima13 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:09 pm

DeeGee wrote:
GonFreeces31 wrote:
DeeGee wrote:Most removal SSs are actually, in expectation, pretty bad. Once again, let's do some math.

Soul skill slot value: 2-3 SP (ceiling of 3 SP because of Orthos, Shvara, PoM, Lucia, floor of 2 SP thanks to witch/pixy dual wielder/etc.) Let's go with 2.5 SP
Set phase value: less for large files that can do lots of damage with one card, very valuable for files that depend on many units. Let's go with 1 SP.
Cost of activation/sacrificial grimoire/unit: 1 (miracle fruit/great spirit) or 2 (Oeste). Let's just go with 1.5 SP for round numbers.


a) Soul skill slot value is 2SP standard.
b) You need to distinguish between refundable and nonrefundable costs. Spirits cost 1 short term, 0 long term. miracle fruit costs 1 short and long term.
c) Your SP value on a set phase is totally arbitrary.


a) 2 SP standard? So should dragon breath be doing 40 damage if asuet and distrier give 1 SP? Should a two-turn engage be 1 SP thanks to Emana?
b) In the long run, either you or your opponent is dead. Great spirits cost 1 SP short term, 1 LP long term. I'm putting 1 LP = 1 SP.
c) Was my valuation of a set phase too much? Clearly it's worth something, otherwise you could be locked the whole game, and so long as you had the SP, dump an entire field of units on the board and win, right? Wrong. The time value of set phases is worth something in SP. Punishment hole puts locking your opponent out of his entire file (75% of the time) at a 2 SP value. So between .5 and 1 SP for a set phase seems about right, according to punishment hole. Am I missing something?


a, its about the "sp cost" of souls not grims. (souls value not equal to other cards value) also take note that all +3sp souls are conditional beside shvara which is in my opinion just pure power creep, but hey noone cared when i was whinning :D.(and now i dont care much either)
b, most files and especially falkow has the options to elude the issue of a lvl1 sacrifical costin 1 lp
c, I agree with you that a fixed setphase has a value. I tend to include this concept in my post currently so ppl understand that a turn is a resource. Yet messuring a setphase in sp is absolutly wrong access, you cannot mesure everything in sp. what is rather important that you can trade your setphases in field positions/or not. And that wasted sets can cost you games if you fight a deck that races agaisnt you in field positions (falkow).
User avatar
Anima13
 
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:15 am
Location: somewhere over the rainbow

Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby Khiruki » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:38 pm

Shvara has a conditional.
ImageImage
User avatar
Khiruki
 
Posts: 1190
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby Romdeau » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:31 pm

gadu wrote:Rom,

I think the majority of SS that target more than one unit are random target. I was wondering what your opinion was about Rasam engage SS and whether it should also be random target or not?

My opinion of Rasam SS is that I've wanted to nerf it for the past several sets since its release. I think at the minimum it should be iczerable (add a disengaged clause)-if not that, then partially random as you say.
User avatar
Romdeau
 
Posts: 7427
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:14 am
Location: California, USA

Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby DeeGee » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:10 pm

Romdeau wrote:
gadu wrote:Rom,

I think the majority of SS that target more than one unit are random target. I was wondering what your opinion was about Rasam engage SS and whether it should also be random target or not?

My opinion of Rasam SS is that I've wanted to nerf it for the past several sets since its release. I think at the minimum it should be iczerable (add a disengaged clause)-if not that, then partially random as you say.


It *is* iczerable. If you iczer a Rasam SS, it's pretty devastating because that means all your units are dead and they only have one turn to benefit from it.
DeeGee
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:47 pm

Re: A Quick View of EX 11

Postby Peralisc9001 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:13 pm

Assa SS is also devastating when it gets iczered. >_>

Anyways, i find it a bit awkward not only that any second deck in folrart has a rasam / engage SS, but also the fact that some decks need it to prevent iczer attacks and fight back vs a stronger field (due to removals).
~ Retired ~
perhaps until the game is actually improved through change or perhaps forever since there are so damn many other games and better things to do @_@
http://www.educatinghumanity.com/2012/0 ... anies.html
User avatar
Peralisc9001
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:35 pm
Location: Agartha

PreviousNext

Return to Annarose's Sanctum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests