Crest/Gowen--incomplete and proposal to complete them

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Crest/Gowen--incomplete and proposal to complete them

Postby DeeGee » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:02 pm

So after playing against some Crest files in Folrart, once using Dion control and another time using dolls, it's come to my realization what the problem of the Gowen sphere and the Crest tribe in general is:

Yes, they can hit you for terrible, terrible damage--but the issue is that they have to hit you first. And the issue with that is that neither sphere really has any agility control cards. Grand duke's private guard is some half-assed attempt at this for Crest, but just looking at him, you can tell that he's going to fail at that. Lawtia sort of has an answer to high-agility units via its undead type mechanics (EXCAK/Hellsmoke/Broken Virus), but Gowen, which was supposed to have been the sphere of "sacrifice defense for agility only exceeded by Falkow, and a crapton of damage" now feels like the slowest sphere in the game, with Lawtia rushes leaning on MD mobility (and maybe MD augment), EN using Fenrir, Eskatia, and Rats, Falkow being the masters of going first when it counts, and Refess regularly hitting agi 6 on one unit, and agi 4 with regularity.

Currently, Refess is getting agility control in the form of Amethyst Eater and Messalia, who is an obnoxious powercreep compared to dryad soldier might I add. It also makes me ask "why is Refess suddenly better at Gowen's schtick of hitting with high atk and agility when it's supposed to be the sphere of HP, defense, and healing"?

Furthermore, Gowen used to have some semblance of agility control with Jack, but that got scaled back from a start to an auto (why?).

Maybe both Gowen and Lawtia can benefit from such a card:

Level 3 Lawt/Gowen non-character, merc nation/mage soldier:
HP 60
Atk 0
Range 1
Agility 3
DF 5

Open skill: subtract 50 HP from a random unit of agi 4 or higher. 0 SP.
Rankup: Gowen 5: Atk+10
Start skill: conditional rank up: subtract Lawtia level x10 from target unit (read: friend or foe) of agi 4 or higher.
Auto skill: this unit gets atk +Lawtia level x10 for this turn

Long story short: using him in conjunction with the usual Gowen/Lawtia suspects (Bringer, dolls (character or not), Dilates) is a risky move if your opponent isn't too agility-dependent, and unlike old elite fencer, there's nothing possibly good that can come from it. Against slow strategies, he'll make a decent beatstick, but that's about as far as he goes. And unlike the old elite fencer, he doesn't have much agility support to actually make him increase his own agility. But he can set up some strategies that I don't think we see too much, such as Lawtia BKR, Lawtia Merc Nation, or using Gow/Lawt for anything besides going animus for a Gowen tribal with gaiessoul splash (which, considering his auto, would put the brakes on actually using Gaiessoul himself/herself to go "lawlz, removed, cya nubcake")

Basically, he's a risky tech unit that depends on your opponent walking into it, and beyond that, just a solid unit to set up some strategies that don't exactly set up all that quickly.

In fact, there's probably a merc nation card that gets completely underused (read: not used) at the moment which could be errata'd to become this guy.

Thoughts?
Last edited by DeeGee on Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crest/Gowen--incomplete and proposal to complete them

Postby GonFreeces31 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:08 pm

I dislike the whole premise that to be good it's necessary to attack first. I think a nice way to get around this issue would be to just give them more close skills that do damage such as the vampire and halberd.
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Re: Crest/Gowen--incomplete and proposal to complete them

Postby Peralisc9001 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:12 pm

4 AGI is decent right now. That's the issue.
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Re: Crest/Gowen--incomplete and proposal to complete them

Postby DeeGee » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:22 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:I dislike the whole premise that to be good it's necessary to attack first. I think a nice way to get around this issue would be to just give them more close skills that do damage such as the vampire and halberd.


The whole close route is pretty terrible. Why? Because you run out of close skills a lot sooner than they run out of the ability to press the attack button. Not to mention that units with close skills generally cost SP to revive, and in the case of buncles, actually won't kill anything with it.

Basically, in order to attack, you actually need to have a turn to press the attack button, and then on top of that, need to have that attack be painful enough to matter. Sure, WK can go first, but without pegasus, if buncles get set up, their attacks will just bounce off a 20 DF jade (never mind the obsidians and the amethyst eater that provide even more longevity). With SKs, if you can't knock Elaice out, you might as well quit right there because she will eventually snowball SKs up.
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Re: Crest/Gowen--incomplete and proposal to complete them

Postby angelspawns » Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:53 pm

I'm having alot of fun with Beltorats. I've played alot of rushes, but nothing gets so easily a crapton of additional statpoints. And then there are "support" Beltorat with 1 hit-KO Skills that give out additional buffs!
One of the highest RP files before Set12 reset was a BKR file. Last time i saw him he was like 15RP away from 2000.
And i know alot of Falkow, Refess and Lawtia files that crumble at the hands of Gowen openphase killing.

Most of your arguments i heard over the past few days are moot points. I could give the same argumentation against Gowen that in order to press atk i need to survive its damagespam.
You live in this fantasy Gowen sux and Refess is OP. I just don't see the data that backs it up nor do i experience it the way you do. I hate Carbuncles too, yes. I hate the boring Phoenix Chick, yes. There are individual cards and tribes that need looking into, but it's nothing to make an exaggerated stand about over an entire sphere. Because there's alot more to Refess that's not Buncles, and alot more to Gowen that's not Monsters. Or Dilate. The only thing i do agree with is that Gowen consists out of boring stuff...

Your suggested unit actually looks like fun. It's missing his openskill cost though (see: Esria&Asta openskill). StartSkill should be random enemy unit Agi4 or higher, and i would cap its dmg potential. Something in the line of ''That units Agi x10'.
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Re: Crest/Gowen--incomplete and proposal to complete them

Postby Icyman2 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:42 pm

Falkow units do more damage than gowen. Just saying. Sorc monk, greatsword, maggie, the attack buffing with ex wiz archer and combat sorc. The list goes on.
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Re: Crest/Gowen--incomplete and proposal to complete them

Postby Ropey » Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:58 pm

They dropped the new Yuni's agi from 4 to 3 and took away her 50/50 chance of regaining 1 hp I believe. They gave her a column attack skill instead :roll: Is that any way to treat a 5 star card? Especially after the oped 5 stars they left alone in the past and had to nerf later! How much harm would it have done to leave her alone? and how much would it have improved sales?
Last edited by Ropey on Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crest/Gowen--incomplete and proposal to complete them

Postby Peralisc9001 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:11 pm

She needs 1 stat point true. Am I really the only one who likes her?

I'd change auto to only 2 units condition due to removals.
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Re: Crest/Gowen--incomplete and proposal to complete them

Postby Ropey » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:36 pm

If you think mercs can compete in the arena you need a reality check. Even with yuni left alone their support network just falls to returns and powerful attacks that are as quick or quicker than them. You would need to field amazon as well just to force agi rolls!
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Re: Crest/Gowen--incomplete and proposal to complete them

Postby GonFreeces31 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:12 pm

Icyman2 wrote:Falkow units do more damage than gowen. Just saying. Sorc monk, greatsword, maggie, the attack buffing with ex wiz archer and combat sorc. The list goes on.

okay this is just an absurd claim.
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