Extra Creditz episodes pertinent to Alteil

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Re: Extra Creditz episodes pertinent to Alteil

Postby Callonia » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:48 pm

DeeGee wrote:If you understood what I was getting at when I meant two players Solitaire, you'd know that a file that depends on establishing a return lock (Dion) is the very opposite of a Solitaire file. Solitaire means that you play as though you had no opponent. A return-lock file plays a bunch of units with rather mediocre stats in the intent of locking down the opponent. The entire file is created with taking away an opponent's options, rather than winning in an overwhelming display of force.

Solar Kingdom vs. Merc Nation is far more solitaire than the usual Dion control match will be.


Dion makes her opponents watch Diondora play solitaire because opponent can't play anything except watch Diondora abuse her way to victory. That is Solitaire.

Merc Nation vs Solar kingdom, You get to watch units punch each other faces out. That isn't solitaire. That is Action. While you may fail to realize, I am currently playing merc nation because of all falkow wusses out in force lately and solar kingdom is extinct again.


Saw a duel earlier today and watched it. Was damn boring. Owl sage keep an high sp enviroment for diondora abuser.
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Re: Extra Creditz episodes pertinent to Alteil

Postby DeeGee » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:58 pm

Okay, look, Callonia, the term comes from magic: the Gathering. To Solitaire in MtG meant "how fast can you achieve your win condition". With aggro, it was "how soon could you swing for 20 damage without your opponent blocking/countering/removing creatures". With some sort of combo deck, it was "how fast, with your opponent not disrupting you, could you assemble your combo". With a burn deck, it was "how fast does it take you to do 20 direct damage". Etc...

Blue strategies are built to have a bunch of cards that are absolutely useless for Solitaire (how well does a return help you iczer against an empty field?), but that disrupt the heck out of their opponent.

We get it. You and Peralisc absolutely despise control. You hate anything that takes resources away from you--anything that instead of just killing your units in an open-field battle, instead just says "no, sorry, you just don't get to do that".

Unfortunately for you, a good strategy game respects the fact that some people like to use control strategies, and not just see who has the better solitaire.
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Re: Extra Creditz episodes pertinent to Alteil

Postby Icyman2 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:03 pm

+1 for the blacking out names callonia
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Re: Extra Creditz episodes pertinent to Alteil

Postby Callonia » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:09 pm

Well DG, Unfortunately for you.

Tons of Gowen Rush players left when DEFS showed up.

Only once in a blue moon I see a gowen rush player I remember these days. I only can hazard a guess that huge % of people dislike control.
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Re: Extra Creditz episodes pertinent to Alteil

Postby Kemious » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:43 pm

DeeGee wrote: Solitaire means that you play as though you had no opponent.


Control files are solitaire files. as much as you hate to believe that DG its the truth.The win condition is achieved the moment you maintain more field presence then they do. Once you have that presence your win condition is very much achieved. often the counter play to this is none existent and I'll fully admit that . Probably as a result to create some sort of counter play to issues Falkow had at the time. bigs being a file type they had no chance against. However as time when on and Falkow gained more units dion could hide behind such a file was deemed credible not as a counter play file but as an actual means to winning The cost of Playing DIon's action => than the unit she's going to return 99 % of the time.

The general idea of a control file is to play as if you have no opponent your actions aren't generally based on what kinda of card they put on to the field or how u can stop em from messing up your file. So In most cases it doesn't matter if They dropped Bringer , Dilate , Fistara or Francis, your gonna play exactly the same. There is no reaction just follow through. As long as you have SP and considering the fact that she gains as much sp as uses each turn losing is hardly possible unless your opponent can effectively remove dion from acting while maintain field control which for the majority of files is something not very do able.

However you DG have to consider format and games when you compare games. If you wanted to compare a TCG to Alteil probably the best one to would be The Pokemon TCG, but even then its a substantial stretch, because of how the rules are. Though honestly the best game to compare it to would probably be Risk. Dion Control would probably be the = of controlling Australia from the get go and as the rest of the players struggle for the remain land.
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Re: Extra Creditz episodes pertinent to Alteil

Postby Ropey » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:06 pm

I played that Dio file I recognize the souls and units. They had a silver star when I played them, I nearly always have a boring hopeless game against them. Until I caught them playing UD. I crushed them.lo l Man did it feel good. Much better than any star you want to give me.
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Re: Extra Creditz episodes pertinent to Alteil

Postby Peralisc9001 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:20 pm

Killing return abusers always feels rewarding.
I just can't be bothered anymore to even play against it at all. It's horribly boring. Take the win, I quit and move on to something that isn't designed to give mentally challenged a chance at winning.

Also most decks in folrart abuse return. I wonder if that still doesn't matter for making the game finally more enjoyable.

As I said in a different thread:
Have an extra arena like folrart where return and tidal is banned see how many people play in them for 1 week.
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Re: Extra Creditz episodes pertinent to Alteil

Postby DeeGee » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:46 pm

Kemious wrote:
DeeGee wrote: Solitaire means that you play as though you had no opponent.


Control files are solitaire files. as much as you hate to believe that DG its the truth.The win condition is achieved the moment you maintain more field presence then they do. Once you have that presence your win condition is very much achieved. often the counter play to this is none existent and I'll fully admit that . Probably as a result to create some sort of counter play to issues Falkow had at the time. bigs being a file type they had no chance against. However as time when on and Falkow gained more units dion could hide behind such a file was deemed credible not as a counter play file but as an actual means to winning The cost of Playing DIon's action => than the unit she's going to return 99 % of the time.

The general idea of a control file is to play as if you have no opponent your actions aren't generally based on what kinda of card they put on to the field or how u can stop em from messing up your file. So In most cases it doesn't matter if They dropped Bringer , Dilate , Fistara or Francis, your gonna play exactly the same. There is no reaction just follow through. As long as you have SP and considering the fact that she gains as much sp as uses each turn losing is hardly possible unless your opponent can effectively remove dion from acting while maintain field control which for the majority of files is something not very do able.

However you DG have to consider format and games when you compare games. If you wanted to compare a TCG to Alteil probably the best one to would be The Pokemon TCG, but even then its a substantial stretch, because of how the rules are. Though honestly the best game to compare it to would probably be Risk. Dion Control would probably be the = of controlling Australia from the get go and as the rest of the players struggle for the remain land.


Well yeah, the general idea is "if I'm playing with a bunch of units whose attributes suck for doing damage, I'm going to make a game state in which the winner isn't determined by who can field the most badass unit".

Look, every good game is going to, at high-level play, have some sort of strategy that wins because it changes the game state into one that's completely out of left field for most of the metagame to deal with and catch everyone with their pants down. If Alteil is going to be about "who can beat up whose critters", then if I play a file that's about not letting you attack, and not attacking into you, then I'm going to win because I adapted to you (changed the game state), and you didn't adapt to me.

That's what the Psychatog meta was about in Magic: the Gathering. That's what the Morrigan/Doom/Vergil team is about in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 (I don't care how much damage you can do if you can hit me, because I'm going to fill up the screen with fireballs so you can't even touch me to begin with), or on a more basic level, fireball keepaway games in Street Fighter 2 onwards. That's what "the blitz" is about in football. It doesn't matter how far you can throw that football, or how acrobatic your wide receivers are, if your quarterback is getting his face planted in the grass on half the plays. It's what submission/grappling/wrestling martial arts are in MMA (it doesn't matter how badly you can knock me out if I get you on the ground).

And yes, those strategies are usually seen as "boring" to those that want to see something dazzling. Dion control is boring to players that want to see gaudy numbers from their tribal bonuses. Psychatog makes for a boring game to those that want to play beatdown with rare creatures. Keep-away is boring for those that want to see a fighting game turn into a combo video reel. Submission wrestling is boring for those that want to see a stand-up striking fight.

A good game designer will say "too F'ing bad". Those that lock themselves in some sort of mental bubble about how a game "should be played" are what Sirlin defines as "scrubs". Those that accept that there are other strategies besides the ones that make dazzling highlight reels are the ones that play to win.

The good games are the ones designed for those who play to win. A game designed for scrubs by scrubs will fail. Every single time.
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Re: Extra Creditz episodes pertinent to Alteil

Postby DeeGee » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:49 pm

Peralisc9001 wrote:
As I said in a different thread:
Have an extra arena like folrart where return and tidal is banned see how many people play in them for 1 week.


And in a week, you're going to have it be dominated by whatever is the strongest tribal, or Lawtia death's embrace/bitter destiny SP denial.
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Re: Extra Creditz episodes pertinent to Alteil

Postby Peralisc9001 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:01 pm

Let's try and see which arena people will like more and what really would be the dominant deck then. Right now game is dominated by returns for most part, it would be a good change if there were more top decks.
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