Buffs Gone Wild

Everything that doesn't go anywhere else.

Re: Buffs Gone Wild

Postby Icyglare » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:09 pm

I like how Scientiafide made sure he didn't quote the Kurina plus Rhino part.

Crest Blitz Swordsman says hi
Cath + Rapier Fencer + Song Sorceress says hi
Pixy Dual Wielder says hi

and the list just grows huge when T4 happens.
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Re: Buffs Gone Wild

Postby gadu » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:38 am

This isn't just about Guardian, but the direction the game keeps moving as whole. I've given many examples of all kinds of units from all spheres not being able to survive for one turn and this impacts what kinds of cards/files are viable and what this game is really all about.

Maybe I need to use pictures since it seems only Icyglare gets what I'm really trying to say.

EDITED DUE TO CAMPERS :D

I understand why approximately 50% of my matches end with the opponent quitting before Turn 10. An early removal usually puts them 3 or more SP behind and if they aren't playing OHKO super units themselves, my field kills anything they put down before they can act, so they are locked and dead.

Rom says nobody likes to feel helpless so they'll keep designing these off the wall murder everything style "solutions." I'll bet that my opponents who are quitting Turn 9 feel helpless when my removals and extreme murderers prevent them from doing anything.
Last edited by gadu on Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buffs Gone Wild

Postby gadu » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:26 am

Ever wonder why many consider Dilate the best tank in the game and he still gets some waning QQ threads?

Because at the very least, it will take two hits to kill him. And if you can't kill him in two hits, he will SURVIVE FOR AT LEAST TWO TURNS (OMG TWO TURNS! That's so OP, NERF!)

Perhaps more importantly, he can make sure opponents row doesn't survive for more than one turn.
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Re: Buffs Gone Wild

Postby GOSCAR » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:36 am

skillll7 wrote:On the inverse of the spectrum, maybe we do need these OHKO units because Guardian and friends are too good at what they do.

OH NO REFESS UNITS CAN (OR WERE ABLE) TO DO WHAT THEY WERE MEANT TO DO.
One does not play alteil the way they want. -Gon

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Re: Buffs Gone Wild

Postby GOSCAR » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:44 am

Romdeau wrote:Sorry, we like things to happen. If you want to build an impenetrable wall of rofl it's just not gonna happen. We have and are going to continue to give players more options to bypass giant walls-because nobody likes to feel powerless to get around a tank.

So should we date this post as the day Refess dies?
One does not play alteil the way they want. -Gon

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Re: Buffs Gone Wild

Postby sunbunman » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:40 am

Rubens so underused for the best (imo) staller in the game. Anyways is it really reasonable to expect a lvl 4 lone unit to tank a field of 3+ units? If i were to play i'd drop an off tank for the main tank i.e. a free reviver before setting up a field. This way guardian/rubens has a chance of not getting completely wiped before the turn ends.
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Re: Buffs Gone Wild

Postby WhiteDragon2 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:52 am

gadu wrote:Ever wonder why many consider Dilate the best tank in the game and he still gets some waning QQ threads?

Because at the very least, it will take two hits to kill him. And if you can't kill him in two hits, he will SURVIVE FOR AT LEAST TWO TURNS (OMG TWO TURNS! That's so OP, NERF!)

Perhaps more importantly, he can make sure opponents row doesn't survive for more than one turn.

It´s mostly that last part. Something that requires multiple units to kill isn´t a problem by itself, but when a part of your field gets killed by it before it can act and there will come other units on his side of the field (and potentially damage grims or an SS that gets triggered), it will be a problem. That being said you can handle dilate with lawtia´s lycans and undeads and falkows fencer and emana as they´re not fazed by his action skill. Files with maxhp hate will do fine too (verlaat being the reason we don´t see him as much anymore). I know from expierence that certain Gowen UD rushes just don´t stand any chance at all against him though.
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Re: Buffs Gone Wild

Postby Scientiafide » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:52 pm

Icyglare wrote:I like how Scientiafide made sure he didn't quote the Kurina plus Rhino part.

Crest Blitz Swordsman says hi
Cath + Rapier Fencer + Song Sorceress says hi
Pixy Dual Wielder says hi

and the list just grows huge when T4 happens.


Yep, you got me Icy. It's not that when I quoted him he didn't have that in his post, and I didn't notice he edited it; rather, it's that I intentionally left that out in the hopes people would not notice/can't read so I can increase my odds of winning an internet argument. Excellent detective work!

Anywho, crest blitz swordsman need your entire file to be composed of crest units (ie all 25 slots), and requires you to only play that unit to ensure you have the 80 attack necessary to one-hit ko guardian. Pixy dual wielder's ability requires 1 sp to get the job done (even sp trade early on), and it targets randomly (meaning it may hit that lvl 1 wisp/refugee citizens instead).

As for all the different card combos mentioned, that kind of falls under the, "requires multiple units" category. I honestly don't see anything wrong with several cards working together to get the +attack necessary to get the job done. It's not like someone using guardian can't have their own support units to help out (by increasing defense, healing, reviving, etc.). The fact remains, there isn't a unit out there below lvl 4 that can one hit this unit without requiring additional costs and/or support. Normally, this means most units at this lvl range will find themselves getting counter-attacked at least once before guardian dies without any support on guardian's behalf. But of course, guardian is meant to be played with other units to maximize it's effectiveness (since that's how refess is meant to be played).

As for every file needing to fit this formula gadu is showing to meet success, that's also not true. I've recently been playing an undead file that's 11-1 right now. It doesn't have any one-hit ko units, and doesn't have any removal (in either the SS or the file). Before undeads and my EX lap file (which I retired at around 8-2 or so), I played mid-refess post nerf. My mid-refess file went around 12-2 or so and was not discouraged by the so-called one-hit ko units that are supposedly everywhere in alteil. I know worthing played 2 files that didn't have any one-hit ko units or removal that he posted on these forums (gowen rush and EN), both which gathered amazing records. The strategy you posted is just one way to win in this game, it's not the only way to do so.

The thing is there's a point where all the extra attack is just a waste since most lvl 3 units don't have more than 50 hp, and usually, getting all the extra attack needed to go past 50 damage requires extra resources and/or support. There's plenty of time for a refess player to set up their own fields properly before the combos come out if the file is built and played properly. In fact, I can't think of a single game while playing refess where I've failed to at least set up my field; if a refess player is having trouble setting up their field, their file needs to be adjusted.
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Re: Buffs Gone Wild

Postby Scientiafide » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:21 pm

Also, everyone's getting on Rom's case, but he's right. He's not saying, "Let's give people tools to make walls useless and obsolete" but rather, "let's give people tools to tear down walls so that the match becomes a struggle on both sides." Ultimately, it's more fun that way. If one's strategy revolves around a strong defense (ie usually refess), it should be that side's objective to ensure the strategy goes off and to maintain that strategy against enemy disruption.
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Re: Buffs Gone Wild

Postby Callonia » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:34 pm

Scientiafide wrote:Also, everyone's getting on Rom's case, but he's right. He's not saying, "Let's give people tools to make walls useless and obsolete" but rather, "let's give people tools to tear down walls so that the match becomes a struggle on both sides." Ultimately, it's more fun that way. If one's strategy revolves around a strong defense (ie usually refess), it should be that side's objective to ensure the strategy goes off and to maintain that strategy against enemy disruption.


He could have worded it better but he went DG's route.

And this forum is tired of DG short of few fans that DG somehow have.

Also, I like how replay showing magic greatsword dude with 90 atk by as early as turn 4 or something has the deniers fleeing for the seven seas.
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