Return Units

[fargone]

I've seen Dio as a toxic card as a long time and Mystere's interaction with Princess Emana is unhealthy as well. Add bule into this formula and you've got a problem. However, until the data reveals to Logress that they are problems, not sure if we can expect any changes.

So... no player opinion?


I agree with the issues these cards create. There is more to alteil than an sp race, but these units create that exact atmosphere.

[Romdeau]

When push comes to shove, Logress responds much more noticeably to statistics than popular opinion.

[Pikeru]

When push comes to shove, Logress responds much more noticeably to statistics than popular opinion.

It's not opinion if it's true, then it becomes fact. Also, I'm certain Shade and Return are easily ranked in the top 10 if not 5 most used cards and almost always have been since forever. It feels like he specifically ignores certain cards that constantly pop up in these "statistics".

[fargone]

As long as there remains a population that does not use them well, the statistics are likely to show some balance.

[Pikeru]

Over-usage is in itself a statistic as well. If suddenly 100% of players started using triple Shade(which actually doesn't take much to imagine) the average win/loss percentage for all decks using it would be a perfect 50%. This in no way would mean it's balanced, it would mean the card is so overwhelmingly broken that the entire playfield had become polluted and stale to the point of monotony. This has been seen in other games: MTG saw affinity, Yugioh saw DAD Return, the only difference is those games took countermeasures to fix the situation they'd put themselves in. Namely, they immediately and gradually banned/limited the cards so OP they cause monotony in deck design and still now continue to do so.

[sunbunman]

Over-usage is in itself a statistic as well. If suddenly 100% of players started using triple Shade(which actually doesn't take much to imagine) the average win/loss percentage for all decks using it would be a perfect 50%. This in no way would mean it's balanced, it would mean the card is so overwhelmingly broken that the entire playfield had become polluted and stale to the point of monotony. This has been seen in other games: MTG saw affinity, Yugioh saw DAD Return, the only difference is those games took countermeasures to fix the situation they'd put themselves in. Namely, they immediately and gradually banned/limited the cards so OP they cause monotony in deck design and still now continue to do so.

I might be misinterpreting this, so correct me if I'm wrong. Did you just say that a 50% win rate is a sure sign of op?

[Romdeau]

Cards that are auto-includes because of their flexibility (ability to use in just about any file) does not alone warrant a nerf.

You may not be aware of this, but shade was the target of a rather heavy nerf a long time ago. So it's not like these cards are immune or something.

[Scientiafide]

Pikeru was saying that if everyone is using shade, the win % of players using shade would be 50% (since everyone's using it).

Anyway, to the matter of return and shade, I will say that in magic the gathering the card common to all mono-red decks are mountains. Since every red-deck win uses mountains, does this mean mountains are op? Shade and return fall into this category imo; ie, they're not cards that are widely used necessarily for their power, but because there's nothing else to use and/or they fill a niche role that is very important to the function of their respective files. Shade is widely used because lawtia doesn't have any other lvl 1s worth using in the average lawtia file, and a file that doesn't use lvl 1s will most likely have poor SP flow. Return is widely used since it affects the most common unit type in the game (lvl 3 units), and the falkow strategy is, "isolate and destroy." All the other falkow grims either require specific file types, or don't help with the general strategy. It also doesn't hurt that every new player starts off with these 2 cards, so it's no surprise that they're widely used.

[GonFreeces31]

The line between good and OP is indeed a blurry one.

[Icyglare]

Pikeru was saying that if everyone is using shade, the win % of players using shade would be 50% (since everyone's using it).

Anyway, to the matter of return and shade, I will say that in magic the gathering the card common to all mono-red decks are mountains. Since every red-deck win uses mountains, does this mean mountains are op?

Did you read my mind, I was gonna post about the overuse of Mountains in MTG also!