Return Units

User suggestions to improve the game

Re: Return Units

Postby fargone » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:37 am

Romdeau wrote:I've seen Dio as a toxic card as a long time and Mystere's interaction with Princess Emana is unhealthy as well. Add bule into this formula and you've got a problem. However, until the data reveals to Logress that they are problems, not sure if we can expect any changes.


So... no player opinion?


I agree with the issues these cards create. There is more to alteil than an sp race, but these units create that exact atmosphere.
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fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


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Re: Return Units

Postby Romdeau » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:50 am

When push comes to shove, Logress responds much more noticeably to statistics than popular opinion.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:31 am

Romdeau wrote:When push comes to shove, Logress responds much more noticeably to statistics than popular opinion.

It's not opinion if it's true, then it becomes fact. Also, I'm certain Shade and Return are easily ranked in the top 10 if not 5 most used cards and almost always have been since forever. It feels like he specifically ignores certain cards that constantly pop up in these "statistics".
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Re: Return Units

Postby fargone » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:38 am

As long as there remains a population that does not use them well, the statistics are likely to show some balance.
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fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:59 am

Over-usage is in itself a statistic as well. If suddenly 100% of players started using triple Shade(which actually doesn't take much to imagine) the average win/loss percentage for all decks using it would be a perfect 50%. This in no way would mean it's balanced, it would mean the card is so overwhelmingly broken that the entire playfield had become polluted and stale to the point of monotony. This has been seen in other games: MTG saw affinity, Yugioh saw DAD Return, the only difference is those games took countermeasures to fix the situation they'd put themselves in. Namely, they immediately and gradually banned/limited the cards so OP they cause monotony in deck design and still now continue to do so.
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Re: Return Units

Postby sunbunman » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:51 am

Pikeru wrote:Over-usage is in itself a statistic as well. If suddenly 100% of players started using triple Shade(which actually doesn't take much to imagine) the average win/loss percentage for all decks using it would be a perfect 50%. This in no way would mean it's balanced, it would mean the card is so overwhelmingly broken that the entire playfield had become polluted and stale to the point of monotony. This has been seen in other games: MTG saw affinity, Yugioh saw DAD Return, the only difference is those games took countermeasures to fix the situation they'd put themselves in. Namely, they immediately and gradually banned/limited the cards so OP they cause monotony in deck design and still now continue to do so.


I might be misinterpreting this, so correct me if I'm wrong. Did you just say that a 50% win rate is a sure sign of op?
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Re: Return Units

Postby Romdeau » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:04 am

Cards that are auto-includes because of their flexibility (ability to use in just about any file) does not alone warrant a nerf.

You may not be aware of this, but shade was the target of a rather heavy nerf a long time ago. So it's not like these cards are immune or something.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Scientiafide » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:30 am

Pikeru was saying that if everyone is using shade, the win % of players using shade would be 50% (since everyone's using it).

Anyway, to the matter of return and shade, I will say that in magic the gathering the card common to all mono-red decks are mountains. Since every red-deck win uses mountains, does this mean mountains are op? Shade and return fall into this category imo; ie, they're not cards that are widely used necessarily for their power, but because there's nothing else to use and/or they fill a niche role that is very important to the function of their respective files. Shade is widely used because lawtia doesn't have any other lvl 1s worth using in the average lawtia file, and a file that doesn't use lvl 1s will most likely have poor SP flow. Return is widely used since it affects the most common unit type in the game (lvl 3 units), and the falkow strategy is, "isolate and destroy." All the other falkow grims either require specific file types, or don't help with the general strategy. It also doesn't hurt that every new player starts off with these 2 cards, so it's no surprise that they're widely used.
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Re: Return Units

Postby GonFreeces31 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:20 pm

The line between good and OP is indeed a blurry one.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Icyglare » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:13 pm

Scientiafide wrote:Pikeru was saying that if everyone is using shade, the win % of players using shade would be 50% (since everyone's using it).

Anyway, to the matter of return and shade, I will say that in magic the gathering the card common to all mono-red decks are mountains. Since every red-deck win uses mountains, does this mean mountains are op?


Did you read my mind, I was gonna post about the overuse of Mountains in MTG also!
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