Return Units

User suggestions to improve the game

Re: Return Units

Postby AquasFire3 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:45 am

Really gets on my nerves how people try to compare fire arrow and return they are two different cards with different concepts And they are in no way similar to each other beside sp cost.I hate to say this usually people who try to compare those cards have no idea about game mechanics. And balance.Since they cant even see the big difference between those 2 cards.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:57 am

AquasFire3 wrote:Really gets on my nerves how people try to compare fire arrow and return they are two different cards with different concepts And they are in no way similar to each other beside sp cost.I hate to say this usually people who try to compare those cards have no idea about game mechanics. And balance.Since they cant even see the big difference between those 2 cards.

This is a good point. I agree with this statement, so let's look at the differences between the 2 cards:

Fire Arrow: Doesn't care about lvl, is affected by Def and cares about HP, only removes 1 life, doesn't directly remove the creature from the field.

Return: Lvl restricted, doesn't care about HP, Def, # of lives and immediately sweeps it off the board.

In comparison, Fire Arrow's 1 advantage is that it affects any level. It's inferior in every other way. If we were to place it next to Assassin, it wouldn't even have that much going for it... This is exactly why I've never compared these 2 before now, it's unfair for Fire Arrow. Instead I compared returning/sending to 3 arrows AND a Bitter Destiny.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Icyglare » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:09 am

Totally adjusted then
Icyglare wrote:don't waste your time because supporting statements like that SUCK.
Feel better, I do too, whew.

Looks like I'm down to the last point you were trying to make because you have completely avoided the rest when they are countered.

Takes 1 turn to cast return, takes 1 turn to summon a unit; quit saying 2, I know that it on the field the turn after but using numbers like that makes the math wonky. You make it sound like it's Time Spiral x3 or something. It's a 1 for 1 card.

The advantage that the person playing it can do is pick which one they want to create an advantageous situation and not because it made the other person lose multiple turns. (Like when a person plays 1 LV3tank and then 1 Safira)

On a side note: I wish people will say Lv3 Return when they talk about that card, and Return mechanics when they are talking about that.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:26 am

Icyglare wrote:Looks like I'm down to the last point you were trying to make because you have completely avoided the rest when they are countered.

My apologies, tell me which ones have been countered, I'll be sure to grow on the issue. So far it didn't appear that any were, it was mostly just flames...
Icyglare wrote:Takes 1 turn to cast return, takes 1 turn to summon a unit; quit saying 2, I know that it on the field the turn after but using numbers like that makes the math wonky. You make it sound like it's Time Spiral x3 or something. It's a 1 for 1 card.

1 turn to cast the creature, 1 more turn for it to reach the field. 1 + 1 = 1. Thank you for the math lesson, I am forever indebted to you. I never knew single digit addition was so complicated for me, I feel so ashamed... Now about Cyclone? I guess that's like this: 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. I think I'm learning.
Icyglare wrote:On a side note: I wish people will say Lv3 Return when they talk about that card, and Return mechanics when they are talking about that.

Agreed. I usually do so myself to make it clear, but sometimes I'll just use a lower case return for the mechanic and proper noun Return for the card itself. It can also be said removal for all effects including send-to-grave and remove-from-game in addition, but people could mistake that for remove-from-game as well. I'll personally try to say "bounce" for returning and maybe others will too, but when I say removal, some may mistake it for remove-from-game. Can't be helped I suppose.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Icyglare » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:39 am

What I'm trying to say is you're comparing numbers in different fields.

How about this, I can say the person using Return is at a disadvantage because if I want to play a unit but also return, I have to take 1 turn casting Return, 1 turn playing a creature, and 1 more turn. Because I'm a LV3 Return user, it takes me 3 turns to play 1 unit.

^ That argument doesn't make sense, neither does yours. If a person is playing T1, T3, T1, T3 repeatly, even though you can return a unit, a unit is hitting the field EVERY Turn. The Player has lost 1 turn, So does the Player playing Return, the 'unit' won't see the field for 2 turns.

-

The previous counterarguments you're avoiding?

1. The 'bias' statement
2. The OTHER cards that are constantly being used that doesn't have restrictions
3. The highly used cards in MTG that are not banned in 1.5 (Counterspell is probably the best example)
(2 and 3? It's because you're Championing MTG as the example to follow)

But hey, somehow saying those supporting arguments suck managed to get the most attention out of you. Maybe I should add them more so you can focus on those arguments.
Last edited by Icyglare on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Return Units

Postby gadu » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:44 am

Uh oh, this Return thread is turning into a Return QQ thread... :o
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:33 am

Icyglare wrote:1. The 'bias' statement
2. The OTHER cards that are constantly being used that doesn't have restrictions
3. The highly used cards in MTG that are not banned in 1.5 (Counterspell is probably the best example)
(2 and 3? It's because you're Championing MTG as the example to follow)

But hey, somehow saying those supporting arguments suck managed to get the most attention out of you. Maybe I should add them more so you can focus on those arguments.

1. Calling someone biased doesn't prove they are, especially if you follow it up with personal insults. In addition, what I've stated are shared sentiments with many individuals. I'm not even sure what you're saying I'm supposed to be biased against, I can only assume you're referring to removal and sp drain. It's definitely not Falkow, I've advocated for them since the beginning and I mostly stay neutral in regards to Lawtia. So in that case, removal and sp drain are more a balance issue. I even give multiple valid points to support my facts, which is more than most people bother with. Several people have admitted so, even some opposed. Personally choosing to ignore them and attack me as a person says more about your character than mine.

However to the base issue: am I biased? Yes, I mostly certainly am. Orks are visually grotesque and not only fail to follow aesthetics, they oppose it completely. Other people may not care about aesthetics, they walk around at 300 lbs. with no shirt, but I'd personally rather not see that or Orks.

2. Aiyah, must I really continue listing them out? Flying Kick, Savage Beatdown, Finishing Move(Vs.), Sol Ring, Library of Alexandria, Strip Mine, Mana Vault(MTG), Sinister Serpent, Monster Reborn, Imperial Order(Yugioh). Or do you want me to list some for Alteil? Just incase: Death's Embrace, Assassin(SS), Sweeping Tidalwave, Magma Golem, Pretender/Alphonce. I can keep going if these lists aren't enough to satisfy you yet, but it'll just be a waste of your time.

3. There are a few more things you've chosen to forget about MTG including hand size, casting multiple spells per turn and drawing cards. Your opponent isn't always going to have Force of Will in hand and when they do and they choose to use it, they've lost a card from their hand and you can continue to play more cards that turn. Also, they have to hold on to that counter and decide immediately whether it's worth using or not. Creatures don't take 2 turns to reach the field in MTG, thus they won't be able to see it a whole turn in advance and then decide, likewise for Yugioh, Vs., Pokemon or Vanguard. They're placed on the board right away and take immediate effect just like spells. Also, there are powerful creatures at multiple levels that just happen to be immune to countering in addition. We have very few units immune to grims or SS and they're only good because of this immunity rather than aside from it as it should be. If you're not satisfied, search for the MTG 1.5 ban list yourself, I've already listed 12 and I'm not gonna post the whole thing just to satisfy you.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Icyglare » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:52 am

1. That bias statement, was a poke at you because you're calling other's bias
Pikeru wrote:...At this point, return and send-to-grave have been around so long, it seems to be more a matter of bias.


2. I'm talking about Alteil bro

3. You're only taking the good talking points while ignoring the rest. Counterspell, I too can play a card my turn and have mana to cast counterspell during yours too. Yea the person playing it lost it from their hand but so did the spell being counterspelled.

Multiple MTG spells immune to being countered? Multiple Alteil creatures immune to LV3 Return.

I'm not telling you to list me the cards on the ban list. WHAT I am telling you is the sheer number of highly used cards that are not on the ban list. You're original argument is, if a card is played a lot, something must be done.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:14 am

Ah, that bias statement. Truth be told, I wasn't the first to make that claim. I actually borrowed it from other times when other people have said it. My restating of it just shows agreement with a pre-existing sentiment.

Before claiming overused cards in MTG, you need to remember epicly stronger versions of those cards existed. You're so hung up on Counterspell, do you know what Mana Drain does? It counters a spell and then gives you the whole cost in mana of what you countered. That card is banned and Force of Will which is also stronger than Counterspell is still legal. I often hear active and informed MTG players complain about Force, but only the inexperienced cry Counterspell. Again, if you want to see overplayed cards that got banned in MTG, look at the 1.5 banned list, you'll have plenty of examples to choose from.
Icyglare wrote:Multiple MTG spells immune to being countered? Multiple Alteil creatures immune to LV3 Return.

Now it's my turn, where are all of these lvl 3 units that are good and immune to bounce? These creatures have to be good regardless of that trait, not because of it, just like Abrupt Decay, Isao/Enlightened Bushi or Thrun/the Last Troll. This type of effect shouldn't be taken into consideration when deciding stats or the creature's other abilities.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Icyglare » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:36 am

Pikeru wrote:Ah, that bias statement. Truth be told, I wasn't the first to make that claim. I actually borrowed it from other times when other people have said it. My restating of it just shows agreement with a pre-existing sentiment.

You actually going to use that? Kinda like Wikipedia if it sourced Fox News. If another person writes that arguments like yours suck, they are just restating an agreement of my pre-existing sentiment right?


Pikeru wrote:Before claiming overused cards in MTG, you need to remember epicly stronger versions of those cards existed. You're so hung up on Counterspell, do you know what Mana Drain does? It counters a spell and then gives you the whole cost in mana of what you countered.

Do you know what Shade used to do? -2sp, therefore if a weaker version exists its okay right?

Pikeru wrote:Now it's my turn, where are all of these lvl 3 units that are good and immune to bounce? These creatures have to be good regardless of that trait, not because of it, just like Abrupt Decay, Isao/Enlightened Bushi or Thrun/the Last Troll. This type of effect shouldn't be taken into consideration when deciding stats or the creature's other abilities.


Why does it have to be lv3? Because I was just going to list everything above and below LV3.
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