Return Units

User suggestions to improve the game

Re: Return Units

Postby angelspawns » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:14 pm

I see your shade and dryad, and raise you an ArmedCitizens. Or AntSwarm.
Last edited by angelspawns on Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Callonia » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:16 pm

angelspawns wrote:I see your shade and dryad, and raise you an ArmedCitizens. Or AntSwarm.


Angelspawns has won.
Last edited by Callonia on Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Return Units

Postby angelspawns » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:22 pm

nvm.
Last edited by angelspawns on Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Icyman2 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:20 pm

Scientiafide wrote:
Icyman2 wrote:worst would be dryad


That's true, dryad only has agi 1 and it's 10 def usually doesn't stop anything. On the plus side, dryad always lands it's +10 def open.

no the fact that it has defense is the problem
and yeah that agi doesn't help
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:04 am

Scientiafide wrote:The only lvl 1 you listed were moxies and domina. Moxies already see tons of play in multi-sphere files, and no one will open with gangadore + domina because it's a huge sp liability (since gangadore drains you 1 sp and a sphere level, and gangadore costs sp to revive). To be honest, judging by the suggestions you made it seems you're rather new to this game (no one opens with Eskatia, it makes more sense to open with dagon in an EN file). It's kind of brash to go around telling all the vets of this game they're wrong about this topic when you have little experience playing this game. But anyway, yes you can open with a lvl 2 on turn 1, but like I asked in my earlier post, what lvl 1 would you use to bridge the gap to the lvl 3 (again, another viable lvl 1 does not exist)? Playing shade on turn 2 does not make sense since most players play a lvl 3 on that turn, hence why players play it on turn 1. Honestly, I wish there was an alternative to shade as an opening because turn 1 shade hardly ever lands. Also, all the sp draining units you mentioned are lvl 4+, which does not make sense in a lvl 3 rush file (which is what I was getting at). So yes, shade DOES fill a necessary role as pretty much the only viable lawtia lvl 1 to bridge the gap between units, and as the only unit capable of draining sp on open for lvl 3 files.

All that aside, shade is a balanced card. If it lands, it steals 1 sp and generates an advantage, but if it doesn't land the player gets stuck with arguably the worst lvl 1 one can field in the game. Considering that the card's open is dodgeable I'm not sure what there is to complain about.

That's quite arrogant to assume false information and then continue on that claim pretending that the disinformation had already been confirmed. You wanted possible opens and I gave an extensively long list to you, both good and mediocre. Personally attacking my credentials for a response to your question is underhanded propaganda and show's a lack of experience from the attacker rather than the victim. All the Lawtia moxies bridge the same gap Shade fills. Brushing them aside and ignoring their existence DOES NOT automatically make Shade the only option, claiming it is is nothing less than a bold-faced lie. Yes, it is the only low lvl unit that drains sp on open, but in what way is that justified? Instead of repeatedly asking how it's broken, countless reasons have been given after all by multiple individuals, what is the argument for claiming it's balanced? Saying it's the only unit that fills a niche is meaningless. If Salamander were a lvl 1 that did hp -50 and the only one, the same argument could be said there as well.
Icyman2 wrote:wtf
shade is perhaps the most interesting card in this game. it shapes opens like no other.

This supports my statement. Shade shapes every open in the entire game. I'd like to know how forcing 100% of files to find a way around it or suffer is balanced? Why does every single deck have to sacrifice imagination to counter a singular card?
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Re: Return Units

Postby Scientiafide » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:08 pm

Pikeru wrote:That's quite arrogant to assume false information and then continue on that claim pretending that the disinformation had already been confirmed. You wanted possible opens and I gave an extensively long list to you, both good and mediocre. Personally attacking my credentials for a response to your question is underhanded propaganda and show's a lack of experience from the attacker rather than the victim. All the Lawtia moxies bridge the same gap Shade fills. Brushing them aside and ignoring their existence DOES NOT automatically make Shade the only option, claiming it is is nothing less than a bold-faced lie. Yes, it is the only low lvl unit that drains sp on open, but in what way is that justified? Instead of repeatedly asking how it's broken, countless reasons have been given after all by multiple individuals, what is the argument for claiming it's balanced? Saying it's the only unit that fills a niche is meaningless. If Salamander were a lvl 1 that did hp -50 and the only one, the same argument could be said there as well.


Where to begin. Well, first I'm just going to state that when you make such bad suggestions it does beg the question as to your "credentials" (I never knew "attacking your credentials" in an online game was such an insult but w/e). It's like a so-called baseball player suggesting the proper way to bat is to hold the fat side of the bat and to hit with the handle, or a so-called chess player suggesting a player open the game with g4. When someone claims to be knowledgeable and makes outrageous claims like these it's only natural to question. I'm not at all surprised, though, that you decided to be a hypocrite and immediately attack my "credentials" though, despite my being an alteil player for over 2 years now.

But for the record, I have nothing against a new or inexperienced player contributing to a discussion. The main problem I was pointing out was that you're brash. Despite the many vets in this game pointing out several arguments as to why this card is fine and debunking the numerous claims that have been given, I've a strong suspicion you'll continue to be so assured that you're right.

As to why I suspected you're inexperienced, let's dissect your previous comment:

Pikeru wrote:On to good openings for Lawtia if Shade stopped monopolizing this game: Chaos Lady/Annarose, Ruler of Crest/Eskatia, Crest Orderly, Gangadore+Domina, Sabeteur, Aide, Mediator. Those last 3 not only bridge the gap before playing a lvl 3, but also let you splash a second color. Shade does not fill the niche of opening unit, there are countless other options that would see play if it would just give them the chance.


The outrageous claims are:

1) You believe gangadore + domina can potentially be a good opening. Even if shade didn't exist this would be a bad way to open the game, due to the huge sp drain it takes to play gangadore and the sp upkeep in reviving him (Cause if you don't revive him, you're going to have to pay the huge sp drain AGAIN if you wish to replay him).

2) You believe Rule of Crest/Eskatia is a good opening. Everyone who has any decent amount of experience in this game knows that you don't open with Eskatia for EN, you open with Dagon (another lvl 2). The reason for this is because dagon can grimbane (Since the first turn of the game has nightime status), and because you don't want to needlessly risk copies of Eskatia by playing her first.

3) All the moxies. The moxies already see tons of play, so what are you talking about? Often times players even open with them turn 1 depending on the file type. Even if they're not played turn 1, they're quite often part of an opening sequence (which may or may not include proxies depending on the file). And are you seriously suggesting anyone running a lvl 3 lawtia rush should be forced to multisphere just to bridge the gap? FYI, Mediator doesn't do anything if you don't have any refess units (it doesn't even have an attack value).

With claims like these, what else am I expected to believe?

Which again, makes me beg the question (since you repeatedly avoid it), what other lvl 1 would you possibly use to bridge between lvl 3s without shade? You also failed to address the fact that shade hardly ever lands turn 1 (I can't even remember the last time that's happened for me since nearly everyone shade-proofs now), and that if it doesn't land it's one of the worst lvl 1s in the game. The ability is dodgeable after all.

Here's a list of all the other lawtia lvl 1s in the game to help you better visualize why shade is so popular:

Animated Dead https://alteil-login.apocoplay.com/card ... .php?id=46
Legion https://alteil-login.apocoplay.com/card ... php?id=219
Succubus https://alteil-login.apocoplay.com/card ... php?id=226
Cemetery Rats https://alteil-login.apocoplay.com/card ... php?id=322
Magic Doll Defective https://alteil-login.apocoplay.com/card ... php?id=439
Broken Priest https://alteil-login.apocoplay.com/card ... php?id=534
Magic Doll Mini https://alteil-login.apocoplay.com/card ... php?id=760
The three moxies

^ That's why shade is so prevalent, there aren't any real alternatives. If there were, you'd see a lot more people opening something like lvl 2-> lvl 1(that's not shade)-> lvl 3, or lvl 2-> lvl 2-> lvl 2 -> lvl 1-> lvl 3.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:07 pm

Pikeru wrote:both good and mediocre.

I like how you ignored this part about some being only mediocre and continue to claim I said they were all good. People don't always multi-sphere while using Stronghold of Chaos, I don't see any reason why a moxie can't be played for the +1 Lawtia, especially considering Catherina serves the exact same purpose. Although I see gradually less and less of her or moxies cause of Shade.
Scientiafide wrote:You also failed to address the fact that shade hardly ever lands turn 1

This is true only because its monopoly has forced every deck in the game to play around it or suffer. I don't have to address this because it supports my points. I single card is bending the state of the entire game and many cards have been banned for doing this: Last Turn, Makyura the Destructor, Magical Scientist, Mass Driver, Yata-Garasu, Cyber Stein, Skullclamp, Goblin Recruiter, Jace/Mind Sculptor, every artifact land.
Scientiafide wrote:But for the record, I have nothing against a new or inexperienced player contributing to a discussion.

If you're really OK with players who have half your experience or less(in this game), you'll stop calling them out on it as though it supports your statements in some way.
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Re: Return Units

Postby GonFreeces31 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:13 pm

Pikeru wrote:
Icyman2 wrote:wtf
shade is perhaps the most interesting card in this game. it shapes opens like no other.

This supports my statement. Shade shapes every open in the entire game. I'd like to know how forcing 100% of files to find a way around it or suffer is balanced? Why does every single deck have to sacrifice imagination to counter a singular card?

According to you, the game would be better if you could just play whatever you wanted and not ever have to think about what the opponent is going to play.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:03 am

You mean like how Dio or removal in general is played? Doesn't matter what unit they pretend will make it onto the field, it's getting bounced, no thinking required. Or how a sp drain deck prevents any and all cards from being played? No need to think about what can't be played. How about deck destruction? Your opponent doesn't even have cards they could play, regardless of sp or removal. The end all of no-thinking-required. You have it backwards, I believe players should be concerned about the cards their opponent might play and these types of 'strategies' say, "**** you, I prefer solitaire. So I'm not even gonna let you have cards on the field." You'll only ever be concerned about the "what if?" when your opponent is actually allowed to play those cards. When their are creatures on the field is the only time when thinking is actually required.
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Re: Return Units

Postby GonFreeces31 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:55 am

If you actually played those files you're talking about you probably wouldn't have those opinions.
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