Pikeru wrote:both good and mediocre.
I like how you ignored this part about some being only mediocre and continue to claim I said they were all good. People don't always multi-sphere while using Stronghold of Chaos, I don't see any reason why a moxie can't be played for the +1 Lawtia, especially considering Catherina serves the exact same purpose. Although I see gradually less and less of her or moxies cause of Shade.
Scientiafide wrote:You also failed to address the fact that shade hardly ever lands turn 1
This is true only because its monopoly has forced every deck in the game to play around it or suffer. I don't have to address this because it supports my points. I single card is bending the state of the entire game and many cards have been banned for doing this: Last Turn, Makyura the Destructor, Magical Scientist, Mass Driver, Yata-Garasu, Cyber Stein, Skullclamp, Goblin Recruiter, Jace/Mind Sculptor, every artifact land.
Scientiafide wrote:But for the record, I have nothing against a new or inexperienced player contributing to a discussion.
If you're really OK with players who have half your experience or less(in this game), you'll stop calling them out on it as though it supports your statements in some way.
Haha are you serious? Here let me pull up the original quote to refresh your memory:
Pikeru wrote: Callonia wrote:
Icyglare wrote:You want to have QQ arguments about LV3 Return or Return mechanics? This game only allows you 25 cards in your file so construction is tight already, you fill your slots with LV3 returns and face an opponent without level 3s, there's an automatic disadvantage. Just like how you can face immune to blue creatures, people can summon immune to LV3 return units.
I was gonna stay out of this but, White Knight in mtg is better than any immune creatures in Alteil
I like watching White Knight slash all those foul black creatures makes me think about EN being annihilated.
Personally I prefer Silver Knight, but they're both basically the same creature, so it comes to personal taste on that point. A 2/2 for 2 with first strike is already a powerful card worth main-decking, protection is just an added bonus or makes it a side-worthy option as well.
I understand the claim's of Basic Land being "overplayed", it's just nonsensical. If you'd let me borrow that concept, I'd like to say gaining 2sp at the beginning of every turn is also an overplayed "card". Please, I beg you to state something logical that's overplayed. I'll even help you: Lightning Bolt, Birds of Paradise, Force of Will(again), Swords to Plowshares, Dark Ritual. I gave you something for every color, you just have to pick and choose the one you want for your argument against me. In fact, use all five if you're really undecided. Shade and Nightwing are definitely not the only creatures to grand theft sp on opening, most obvious also include Zu-Jyuva, but the list also includes Nightmare Given Form and Curse on the World. On to good openings
for Lawtia if Shade stopped monopolizing this game: Chaos Lady/Annarose, Ruler of Crest/Eskatia, Crest Orderly, Gangadore+Domina, Sabeteur, Aide, Mediator. Those last 3 not only bridge the gap before playing a lvl 3, but also let you splash a second color. Shade does not fill the niche of opening unit, there are countless other options that would see play if it would just give them the chance. Unfortunately, this won't happen while Shade remains the way it is because Shade is not just a way of punishing players who refuse to submit to conformity, it also counters the opponent's Shade guaranteeing that transition into the lvl 3 if the case may be.
You claim Return becomes a liability against players who don't use lvl 3 creatures and this is true to some degree. I'd like to point out a few other cards that become huge minuses if your opponent doesn't use creatures: Tribe-Infecting Virus, Raigeki, Royal Oppression, Crush Card Virus, Change of Heart, Snatch Steal, Brain Control, I think 7 examples are enough. If a card is broken, it doesn't matter if it's a liability in a select few match-ups, the card is still broken regardless.
Yea I'm reading that whole, "both good and mediocre bit," as you saying, "Oh no I didn't mean GOOD, I meant good and mediocre! See I still know what I'm talking about." Instead of admitting you're actually wrong about something, you'd prefer to pretend you meant something else just to save face. Guess winning an internet argument is just so important. Btw, Gangadore + Domina as an open is not mediocre, it's just plain bad. Same thing with Eskatia, it's just plain bad since the same file has an open that's way better.
But see, this is why I'm calling you out. It has nothing to do with you being a new player. If the average new player came on here and made a point, and all the vets in the game disagreed, that player would probably think, "Hmm maybe I'm mistaken," instead of, "Well I KNOW I'm right, everyone else has to be wrong." To be so self-assured you know better than all the other players in the game when you're inexperienced is brash. This is relevant to this discussion because, chances are, no matter what arguments are presented to you you'll probably never be convinced. Also, the fact that you're new and don't know what you're talking about DOES invalidate some of the things you're saying, especially when combined with your refusal to accept when you're mistaken. Granted, if you're a new player and you're right, you're right, being new has nothing to do with it. But if I had to place a bet on who's more likely to be correct about any topic, I'd bet on the guy who has tons of experience over the new-comer. It's common sense, really.
Who knows, maybe I'm mistaken about you, but when you pull stuff like this what else am I supposed to believe?
Also a few more corrections, If you're playing a moxie in a monosphere file, it's NOT the same thing as Cath. Playing Catherina actually helps you gain an sp advantage; since you have to raise a different sphere level you wont use with the moxy, it's pretty much the same thing as playing a lvl 1 of the same sphere. As for stronghold of chaos, good players using it at the very least plan to use a lvl 1 from a different sphere to take advantage of it. The idea that moxies are being played less and less cause of shade is also ridiculous. They're already a necessity for a lot of multi-sphere files as is.
As for the other cards in the games you mentioned (well mostly mtg for me because I do not play yu-gioh), cards like skull clamp, artifact lands, and jace/mind sculptor were banned because they often provided significant beneficial effects that were unstoppable. Sure there were some means to stop these cards, but often times the player playing them would generate a huge advantage.
The most common result that occurs when playing shade on turn 1 is the open fails, by far (I'd wager that the odds of this open not draining sp on turn 1 would be around 90% or higher). After turn 1, it's often a dance of sorts for the lawtia player to see if he can land one. If he doesn't, he just played a crappy lvl 1 with no effect (putting him at a disadvantage). If he does, then he developed an advantage; whether or not the advantage is game-breaking depends solely on how well the other player developed his/her file. If one shade is all it takes to make you lose the game your file needs to be seriously reworked. If your file has good sp flow, you should be able to often dodge shade's effect, and even if it lands it shouldn't single-handedly break you. In fact, since most lawtia players do the predictable 1-3-1 setup, I often dodge their shades (and usually beat them easily as a result). Shade is very much a skill-card, a player who uses it correctly has both developed a good file that allows for it's correct use, and also knows when to best time it to make sure they generate an advantage. It's not at all a mindless "play and win" card like the mtg cards you listed.
So, yet again, what other lawtia lvl 1 would you possibly use to bridge between lvl 3s without shade? The fact you're stating players should be forced to play a multi-sphere card is incredibly amusing. I've also heard nothing yet on my comment that mediator is useless without a refess card. What's next, are you going to suggest lawtia players should play Emerald carbuncle to bridge the gap?[Edited for tone by moderator]