Return Units

User suggestions to improve the game

Re: Return Units

Postby sunbunman » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:59 am

Pikeru wrote:You mean like how Dio or removal in general is played? Doesn't matter what unit they pretend will make it onto the field, it's getting bounced, no thinking required. Or how a sp drain deck prevents any and all cards from being played? No need to think about what can't be played. How about deck destruction? Your opponent doesn't even have cards they could play, regardless of sp or removal. The end all of no-thinking-required. You have it backwards, I believe players should be concerned about the cards their opponent might play and these types of 'strategies' say, "**** you, I prefer solitaire. So I'm not even gonna let you have cards on the field." You'll only ever be concerned about the "what if?" when your opponent is actually allowed to play those cards. When their are creatures on the field is the only time when thinking is actually required.


What I get from this is that according to you every mechanic that doesn't buff and/or weaken on-field units should be removed from the game... Thats like taking everything interesting from the game and leaving an empty husk of what it used to be.

True, shade open has had an heavy impact on the available opening options in the game, but there are counters to it in just about every sphere except maybe gowen. Refess has the emerald buncle, falkow has rileria and cath, lawtia lashes and gowen has ... well gowen has nothing. Not to mention that many files ignore the presence of shade completely with skip->proxy, ex merc girl or even standard lvl 2 opens.

I've given up on arguing for returns cause these go nowhere with the argument normally degrading down to a ragefest.

And then we have file destruction. Why would hate on that? its normally a 1 for 1 trade with the exception of the on field file destructors and chaos abs. Not much in the ways of op from my pov since these files tend to seriously gimmicky and sp intensive.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:07 am

I'm not necessarily suggesting all these effects be completely removed from the game, but most are more than twice as efficient as is required for balance's sake. It's only natural cards with powerful effects need high costs or heavy drawbacks/requirements and this isn't the case. For a pair of examples: Shade is poweful enough to be a lvl 3 with the exact same stats and effect. Return needs something similar to being a lvl 4 that gives -1 Falkow and self-grimbanes a spell.

In Alteil, deck destruction directly translates to hand destructing an opponent who's Yata-Locked since they're unable to draw cards to replace the ones lost. You can ask thousands of people who'll tell you how frustrating it was to scoop their cards after getting Delinquent Duo'd and either Forceful Sentry'd or Confiscation'd and then to see it followed up by Yata-Garasu. In addition, the fact that creatures have 3 lives here means just hitting any random creature is equal to a full death for it absolutely free. Grimbaning might possibly be the only balanced version of this, but once again only when the price is right, Dagon and Sumer+Fellana's auto are both overly-efficient.
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Re: Return Units

Postby GonFreeces31 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:58 pm

Pikeru wrote:Shade is poweful enough to be a lvl 3 with the exact same stats and effect. Return needs something similar to being a lvl 4 that gives -1 Falkow and self-grimbanes a spell.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Scientiafide » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:13 pm

Pikeru wrote:
Pikeru wrote:both good and mediocre.

I like how you ignored this part about some being only mediocre and continue to claim I said they were all good. People don't always multi-sphere while using Stronghold of Chaos, I don't see any reason why a moxie can't be played for the +1 Lawtia, especially considering Catherina serves the exact same purpose. Although I see gradually less and less of her or moxies cause of Shade.
Scientiafide wrote:You also failed to address the fact that shade hardly ever lands turn 1

This is true only because its monopoly has forced every deck in the game to play around it or suffer. I don't have to address this because it supports my points. I single card is bending the state of the entire game and many cards have been banned for doing this: Last Turn, Makyura the Destructor, Magical Scientist, Mass Driver, Yata-Garasu, Cyber Stein, Skullclamp, Goblin Recruiter, Jace/Mind Sculptor, every artifact land.
Scientiafide wrote:But for the record, I have nothing against a new or inexperienced player contributing to a discussion.

If you're really OK with players who have half your experience or less(in this game), you'll stop calling them out on it as though it supports your statements in some way.


Haha are you serious? Here let me pull up the original quote to refresh your memory:

Pikeru wrote:
Callonia wrote:
Icyglare wrote:You want to have QQ arguments about LV3 Return or Return mechanics? This game only allows you 25 cards in your file so construction is tight already, you fill your slots with LV3 returns and face an opponent without level 3s, there's an automatic disadvantage. Just like how you can face immune to blue creatures, people can summon immune to LV3 return units.


I was gonna stay out of this but, White Knight in mtg is better than any immune creatures in Alteil :P

I like watching White Knight slash all those foul black creatures makes me think about EN being annihilated.

Personally I prefer Silver Knight, but they're both basically the same creature, so it comes to personal taste on that point. A 2/2 for 2 with first strike is already a powerful card worth main-decking, protection is just an added bonus or makes it a side-worthy option as well.

Science:
I understand the claim's of Basic Land being "overplayed", it's just nonsensical. If you'd let me borrow that concept, I'd like to say gaining 2sp at the beginning of every turn is also an overplayed "card". Please, I beg you to state something logical that's overplayed. I'll even help you: Lightning Bolt, Birds of Paradise, Force of Will(again), Swords to Plowshares, Dark Ritual. I gave you something for every color, you just have to pick and choose the one you want for your argument against me. In fact, use all five if you're really undecided. Shade and Nightwing are definitely not the only creatures to grand theft sp on opening, most obvious also include Zu-Jyuva, but the list also includes Nightmare Given Form and Curse on the World. On to good openings for Lawtia if Shade stopped monopolizing this game: Chaos Lady/Annarose, Ruler of Crest/Eskatia, Crest Orderly, Gangadore+Domina, Sabeteur, Aide, Mediator. Those last 3 not only bridge the gap before playing a lvl 3, but also let you splash a second color. Shade does not fill the niche of opening unit, there are countless other options that would see play if it would just give them the chance. Unfortunately, this won't happen while Shade remains the way it is because Shade is not just a way of punishing players who refuse to submit to conformity, it also counters the opponent's Shade guaranteeing that transition into the lvl 3 if the case may be.

You claim Return becomes a liability against players who don't use lvl 3 creatures and this is true to some degree. I'd like to point out a few other cards that become huge minuses if your opponent doesn't use creatures: Tribe-Infecting Virus, Raigeki, Royal Oppression, Crush Card Virus, Change of Heart, Snatch Steal, Brain Control, I think 7 examples are enough. If a card is broken, it doesn't matter if it's a liability in a select few match-ups, the card is still broken regardless.


Yea I'm reading that whole, "both good and mediocre bit," as you saying, "Oh no I didn't mean GOOD, I meant good and mediocre! See I still know what I'm talking about." Instead of admitting you're actually wrong about something, you'd prefer to pretend you meant something else just to save face. Guess winning an internet argument is just so important. Btw, Gangadore + Domina as an open is not mediocre, it's just plain bad. Same thing with Eskatia, it's just plain bad since the same file has an open that's way better.

But see, this is why I'm calling you out. It has nothing to do with you being a new player. If the average new player came on here and made a point, and all the vets in the game disagreed, that player would probably think, "Hmm maybe I'm mistaken," instead of, "Well I KNOW I'm right, everyone else has to be wrong." To be so self-assured you know better than all the other players in the game when you're inexperienced is brash. This is relevant to this discussion because, chances are, no matter what arguments are presented to you you'll probably never be convinced. Also, the fact that you're new and don't know what you're talking about DOES invalidate some of the things you're saying, especially when combined with your refusal to accept when you're mistaken. Granted, if you're a new player and you're right, you're right, being new has nothing to do with it. But if I had to place a bet on who's more likely to be correct about any topic, I'd bet on the guy who has tons of experience over the new-comer. It's common sense, really.

Who knows, maybe I'm mistaken about you, but when you pull stuff like this what else am I supposed to believe?

Also a few more corrections, If you're playing a moxie in a monosphere file, it's NOT the same thing as Cath. Playing Catherina actually helps you gain an sp advantage; since you have to raise a different sphere level you wont use with the moxy, it's pretty much the same thing as playing a lvl 1 of the same sphere. As for stronghold of chaos, good players using it at the very least plan to use a lvl 1 from a different sphere to take advantage of it. The idea that moxies are being played less and less cause of shade is also ridiculous. They're already a necessity for a lot of multi-sphere files as is.

As for the other cards in the games you mentioned (well mostly mtg for me because I do not play yu-gioh), cards like skull clamp, artifact lands, and jace/mind sculptor were banned because they often provided significant beneficial effects that were unstoppable. Sure there were some means to stop these cards, but often times the player playing them would generate a huge advantage.

The most common result that occurs when playing shade on turn 1 is the open fails, by far (I'd wager that the odds of this open not draining sp on turn 1 would be around 90% or higher). After turn 1, it's often a dance of sorts for the lawtia player to see if he can land one. If he doesn't, he just played a crappy lvl 1 with no effect (putting him at a disadvantage). If he does, then he developed an advantage; whether or not the advantage is game-breaking depends solely on how well the other player developed his/her file. If one shade is all it takes to make you lose the game your file needs to be seriously reworked. If your file has good sp flow, you should be able to often dodge shade's effect, and even if it lands it shouldn't single-handedly break you. In fact, since most lawtia players do the predictable 1-3-1 setup, I often dodge their shades (and usually beat them easily as a result). Shade is very much a skill-card, a player who uses it correctly has both developed a good file that allows for it's correct use, and also knows when to best time it to make sure they generate an advantage. It's not at all a mindless "play and win" card like the mtg cards you listed.

So, yet again, what other lawtia lvl 1 would you possibly use to bridge between lvl 3s without shade? The fact you're stating players should be forced to play a multi-sphere card is incredibly amusing. I've also heard nothing yet on my comment that mediator is useless without a refess card. What's next, are you going to suggest lawtia players should play Emerald carbuncle to bridge the gap?

[Edited for tone by moderator]
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:44 pm

Since it's clear you have a personal vendetta against me, I'll use ideas from others instead. Though I'm certain you're going to use it as another opportunity to personally attack me and ignore it like everything else. The card is MD Defective and you can go read this thread if you forgot the ideas people have with it:

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=13523&start=20
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Re: Return Units

Postby Icyglare » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:50 pm

^ Doesn't that go against your argument that shade is monopolizing lawtia openings?
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:45 pm

If you're referring to Jewel, that was before the errata. I rarely see it anymore. The points I'm addressing to are obviously the MD Defective ones. Sadly, Jewel was one of the shrinking short list of cards that counter Shade and now it's gone. Although, it did have a problem comboing w/ Mediator, but at least that is seen a mile away. Odds of your opponent opening Shade are only 33-50%.
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Re: Return Units

Postby gadu » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:36 am

I don't get the mediator thing. It was similar to a PoM and now probably nobody will ever use that SS again. I've never seen Jewel after the errata either.
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Re: Return Units

Postby GonFreeces31 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:37 am

Well the Jewel nerf was just to prevent the guaranteed 100% activation of a +3 SP SS. Nothing else about Jewel was overpowered. Just mass hysteria.
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Re: Return Units

Postby gadu » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:40 am

I can understand nerfing it, I just don't get the strange way it was done. It was not 100% guarentee activation because like shade, opponent could play around it and make it just a +2 SP generation.

I can get my PoM to activate close to 100% without Jewel, so I don't get what the big deal was anyway.
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