Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Shirozaki » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:24 am

Romdeau wrote:My other job is an overnight shift so yes it is convenient for me.

Edit: You know what, I just realized I haven't seen you play in over a year, so it seems a little hypocritical to me for you to be spouting any kind of criticism in this matter.

For a matter of fact, you haven't seen me play at all.
If Logress's memory weren't as much a sieve as is yours he'd tell you which accounts I play and played.

However, how is that relevant? Ain't I a customer like everyone else?
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Scientiafide » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:02 pm

Quigleaf wrote:
Scientiafide wrote:Anyway, it seems the argument I'm hearing is, "$40 isn't that much; the problem is what you're getting for the $40, it's not enough content." Isn't that the same thing as saying the prices are too high?


Is definitely not the same.

I do not mind paying $40 for something I like this much and from where I get this much entertainment.

The EX Chromatic Forces Full Box is not attractive enough, if the only benefit I get is to save 100G, because then I will simply pay for the ones I like the most, wait for a better bundle or a product that benefits me more as an Alteil player and purchase it. As a quick example, the current EX Chromatic Forces Full Box is not attractive enough for me to buy it while I can wait and purchase the Easter Egg Box that will help me get the Seasonal Marchare and a bunch of other rewards plus a bunch of 4* and 5* that will give me more access to other decks than this EX release.

And that definitely does not mean I will not pay $40 for something Alteil offers. Au contraire, I am more than willing and able to do it so we as players (both free-to-players and investing players) can keep enjoying this fantastic game for what I hope will be many, many years.

When I say "this release has not enough value" I am not saying "prices are too high". I would prefer if the Developers made a EX Full Box that costed $40 but gave me more and better choices (more cards, or alternate art variants, or even little things like Avatar stuff) than paying $30 for the same box (well, $30 surely sounds tempting, but that's not the point).

- - - - -

I will be offering my opinion on each release from a financial vantage point in these "Financial Rundown" threads, with the objective of helping new Iczers get the most bang for their bucks. Knowing when, and what to buy is more important than how much you are able to spend. Maximizing opportunities of enjoyment in this game is my goal.

After reading several noted Iczer's reactions (since I have been unable to test them, so take this with a grain of salt), my advice is simple: if you will use them all immediately, go for the EX Box. If you won't, wait for the Easter Egg box and recycle as needed.

If your budget is limited, I'd highly advise for you to go for 3x of any of these. Gowen and Lawtia seem both definitely the better choices here, since EX Maggie can work in a wide variety of decks, and Lawtia's EX cards lay the ground for interesting combinations (Undead Game Over, anyone?) that seem to be currently favored by the development team. Keep a close eye on the new EX Priestess of Madness by the way.


If you're saying you're not getting enough content for the price you're paying, it's the same as saying the products you're getting are overpriced; ie, the price is too high. It's that simple. No one who feels they're getting a good or fair deal would say, "Gee you're really not getting all that much for your money, I wish they included more stuff to make it more worthwhile."

When players are pointing out the $45 price tag, it's not to say, "Oh $45? How can anyone ever spend $45!" Nearly every player who points out the price follows it up complaining about the very little content you're getting in return.

I'd also like to point out that yes I get where you're coming from in respects to what you're willing to pay and all that. Without an immediate and valid comparison available in the market, there's always a bit more leniency on what people are willing to pay for a product (especially if it's for something they really want or enjoy). In your eyes there aren't really a lot of games like alteil, and since it's a game you really enjoy you're willing to dish out the cash; I get that. The problem, though, is that I think more people tend to think in the opposite spectrum: They start playing, think it's fun, but then they see the price tag and think, "Why should I play this game when I can play games X, Y, and Z and pay only a fraction of the cost?" I think the people who have actually decided to stay tend to think a lot more like you do (ie those who don't mind paying a higher price because they really really like the game), hence the small player population (and I think there's pretty much unanimous agreement that that's a problem). For a lot of gamers, something like the EX box is a huge turn-off: it's an exclusive, limited-time only small set of cards that only a few players will get for overpaying and being around at the right time. It's especially worse when these cards are very powerful.
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Quigleaf » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:35 am

Scientiafide wrote:If you're saying you're not getting enough content for the price you're paying, it's the same as saying the products you're getting are overpriced; ie, the price is too high. It's that simple.

For a lot of gamers, something like the EX box is a huge turn-off: it's an exclusive, limited-time only small set of cards that only a few players will get for overpaying and being around at the right time. It's especially worse when these cards are very powerful.


There's an old adage in my native language that goes: "It's not what you say, it's how you say it".

If you're saying "this is too expensive", I say "I want more value". Your issue is how much money you have to spend to get your cards; my issue is how much content (entertainment hours, art quality, extra content) I get with my cards.

So, under casual observation it might look that we're both asking for the same thing, yet both replies stem from different feelings and have different goals. There's a way to appease us both: lower the price. There's another way that solves my issues but not yours: add extra content (whether it is extra cards, special avatar items or whatever) and raise the price accordingly.

This long discussion comes from a difference over perceived value. Your perception of how much is worth the EX box is different from mine, and even if the conclusions are similar there are possible outcomes that are not suitable for both.



Now, I understand that power level issues might arise when releases of this kind occur. Yet your posture is completely off: there have been several card games that print rare, solid cards in limited runs. There's always backlash from those who are unable/unwilling to pay for such items, yet gaming systems benefit from their existence: without revenue, there's no business. No business means no game.

This small-print cards serve a clear purpose for the publishers: generate as much profit as possible with as less resources as possible. Every card game worth its salt has this type of products (yes, even M:tG).

Game designers have to balance carefully such releases. If you want to judge the quality of a card game's designers, see how wide is the gap between normal cards and this "premium" items. Here, I believe the Alteil team did an outstanding job: there's nothing that pops out at first glance as too mighty, and even weak-looking cards are proving themselves as either useful tools or niche roleplayers.

You do have a point tho: the Apocostaff needs to be careful about how necessary is an EX card for an archetype, or you risk ending up with another "Set 8 EX Lap" file that no one will be able to build unless it has the premium cards.

About everything else, let's recognize the differences in our arguments. Both have made our postures clear, there's no need for further replies.
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby fargone » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:46 am

Quiggy, quiggy, quiggy.


You can rant and rave all you like about content but you are missing one vital point.

Most people on the internet - that is to say the vast majority of potential players - have either no interest, or no ability to spend on a regular basis, the level of money that you personally are willing to pay to play this, or any other game. Until you understand that immutable point, you are simply blowing wind and enjoying the tune.

After all definitions and evaluations are said and done, that very fact will be the fulcrum on which the success of this game in the future will rest. If they can't get the balance right, and yes that also means the overall cost of investment, then it really won't matter how you choose to define your argument, because nobody will be here to hear it.
GonFreeces31 wrote:
fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


What, I make legit points too...
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Quigleaf » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:10 am

fargone wrote:Most people on the internet have either no interest, or no ability to spend on a regular basis, the level of money that you personally are willing to pay to play this, or any other game. Until you understand that immutable point, you are simply blowing wind and enjoying the tune.

After all definitions and evaluations are said and done, that very fact will be the fulcrum on which the success of this game in the future will rest. If they can't get the balance right, and yes that also means the overall cost of investment, then it really won't matter how you choose to define your argument, because nobody will be here to hear it.


I do understand, which is the reason of why I decided to leave my silent stance and post a personal evaluation of Alteil purchases (disregarding individual budgets). If I had the support of the community in this venture (yours and other Alteil investors that happen to be solid players) it would be truly fantastique.

Because both of us should have a personal interest on making this game thrive.
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Callonia » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:56 am

Eh. I said i'm skipping this EX and i'm sticking to it. I have been known by myself to skip on EX sale when I get pissed off by running into many autolose matches in revenge. Its only fair, If i don't get to have fun, I'm not letting alteil have fun by getting my money. Last time i got noob slashed was last week on around thursday or so because of that, I am quite in mood to stick it to the alteil. ;attack
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby gadu » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:34 pm

Quig, weren't you going to do a rundown on the Easter sale? What kind of results are people getting in terms of recycle value?

Callonia wrote:Eh. I said i'm skipping this EX and i'm sticking to it. I have been known by myself to skip on EX sale when I get pissed off by running into many autolose matches in revenge. Its only fair, If i don't get to have fun, I'm not letting alteil have fun by getting my money. Last time i got noob slashed was last week on around thursday or so because of that, I am quite in mood to stick it to the alteil. ;attack


I stand in solidarity with you Cal. Alteil will also not get any of my money until it is equitable and the list of Solar Kingdom Demands has been met. ;th2
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Quigleaf » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:46 pm

gadu wrote:Quig, weren't you going to do a rundown on the Easter sale? What kind of results are people getting in terms of recycle value?


Yeah. I'm still trying to organize data since I didn't recycle everything from my first box because several cards helped me complete sets of things I didn't have.

When talking about the 3kG Easter Egg box, you're looking at a nicer product than three 99 pulls. The guaranteed 5* and 4* make the product much better in terms of quality (even if the 2* results are not as much as you would like).

With $50 of investment you can get 3 of these with ease (recycling everything that you won't use), plus around 12 EX pulls. The difference from the $40 EX Chroma Box is huge, since you will end up with at least one 5*, two 4*, several 3* cards plus the EX cards that you keep, and somewhere around 4 Easter Egg cards from each variety (not counting the Evil Argyle), which will put you almost halfway to your EX Marchare. And my results were poor while cracking, since I got the minimal guaranteed from each box twice.

In a nutshell, the Easter Egg Box is a welcome improvement over the EX Chromatic Forces Box.

About that release btw, some more data:

- EX Mermaid Soldier [Human] is a terrific card in a Mermaid Princess/Emana deck. Its EX non-human counterpart is also required, but not exactly necessary (unless you're trying to compete with Johnjo or Jazzock), so you're looking at a card that makes really powerful a deck that was already good.

- EX Mage Soldier Mercenary Girl is way over my initial expectations. She can stall the field with 2 SP, deal by herself with threats as large as a Star Dragon for 1 SP with just 6 levels on Gowen and together with Bringer, they are a new Gowen duo that can deal by itself with basically any type of field.

- EX Light Magic Soldier is an underrated card. 30-50 targeted column damage per turn, plus 15 HP worth of healing? Don't let its AGI 1 body fool you, she is quite the package in a tiny and cute L2 unit. If you're a dedicated Refess player do yourself a favor and get 2x of these now, you will regret not doing it.

- EX Nightmare given Form is underperforming for me. Not enough data to judge the card accordingly, since sometimes it's not the card that fails but the file you put it in, so I will try a few more configurations before posting a final evaluation.
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There's way too much variety to get from pulls. You get used to it. I… I don't even see the names. All I see is 5 gran, 30 gran, 10 gran.
Hey, you, uh… wanna play?
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Aoi » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:24 pm

Ex Lma underated?, the thing is pretty op, target start skill dmg lancers. Also any data on ex aug sorc, ex tali, or ex pom as units.
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Quigleaf » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:55 pm

Aoi wrote:Ex Lma underated?, the thing is pretty op, target start skill dmg lancers. Also any data on ex aug sorc, ex tali, or ex pom as units.


Coming, but it would be better if people that had already used them wanted to share their experiences with us.

About LMA underrated, the comment was… not for you, Aoi. Thanks for validating it tho.
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There's way too much variety to get from pulls. You get used to it. I… I don't even see the names. All I see is 5 gran, 30 gran, 10 gran.
Hey, you, uh… wanna play?
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