Seasonal Card Upgrade

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Re: Seasonal Card Upgrade

Postby Romdeau » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:57 am

Kouseo wrote:Seriously? Someone from the staff couldn't give me an answer to my question? All they could do is test their lotto and screenshot that they got a wisp from it. I can see why they won't let us trade in 1*s, its like impossible to get!

So my understanding is that because we don't have an automated system to run this sale, all orders must be processed manually. Logress probably doesn't think it's resource efficient to commit himself (or whoever) to process 1 star orders because they're not very likely to turn a profit for Apocoplay.

I remember reading a comment from him somewhere that for some reason the wisp seasonal was given special treatment by the Japanese (put in a box sale or something), and so it has a higher rarity then a 1 star (even though it's still technically a 1 star).
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Re: Seasonal Card Upgrade

Postby harvest4god » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:20 pm

This is a ripoff. Such high costs for a trade is ridiculous.

You're not gaining a new card you are TRADING it.

Better Price list:
1* and 2*: 50 gran (Minimum of 4 if 1* only)
3*: 75 gran
4*: 100 gran
5*: 150 gran


If they don't have the card to begin with, then they can't get it. so the price should be low.
I even think you could just make it 50 gran a card and it would be fair.
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Re: Seasonal Card Upgrade

Postby angelspawns » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:14 pm

I'm more worried how Logress will treat this tests results. Looks like he's trying to test the animo for a system simulair to LoL: revenue gained by offering vanity stuff. Things you don't need to play the game with.

Such a system may work in Alteil, but it's not tested in an enviroment that still requires you to buy 'true' content. Content needed to play the game with like the current EX's. People that normally would spend for looks still chose to enhance their files... Suddenly 1000Gran looks rediciouless when i still need 3 Ex Packs. (It looks redicouless eitherway since it actually is 100 pulls of new cards, 33 of new seasonals)

LoL works because you can get the normal content without spending. If you like the game enough, in time you're willing to spend money on vanity. (and you get more eager to skip the process of grinding, and go straight to buying the content)


This doesn't mean Alteil can't offer vanity things to make revenue. But the way it currently is they should really lower the money they're asking for it.
It can't hurt to increase the premium advantages aswell. Premium accounts could contain:
- access to Seasonal exchanger.
- more battle data.
- costum avatar items. Like an extra layer, or upload your own paint-scribbled avatar.
- more fileslots
- increased TB rate. (+2% for each year of Premium)
- why am i always making suggestions like you'd consider my input.
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Re: Seasonal Card Upgrade

Postby Kouseo » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:44 pm

Romdeau wrote:
Kouseo wrote:Seriously? Someone from the staff couldn't give me an answer to my question? All they could do is test their lotto and screenshot that they got a wisp from it. I can see why they won't let us trade in 1*s, its like impossible to get!

So my understanding is that because we don't have an automated system to run this sale, all orders must be processed manually. Logress probably doesn't think it's resource efficient to commit himself (or whoever) to process 1 star orders because they're not very likely to turn a profit for Apocoplay.

I remember reading a comment from him somewhere that for some reason the wisp seasonal was given special treatment by the Japanese (put in a box sale or something), and so it has a higher rarity then a 1 star (even though it's still technically a 1 star).


...So you're telling me that I can't trade my wisp because its a 1* but at the same time it is like the RAREST one to get from lotto? (I say this because I have got multiple of each 5* seasonal before, the only card I have only got one of is Noze and Archer Shecas but I have 2 schoolgirl Shecas) I know its only speculation on your part but if this is indeed true, it is the biggest rip off ever and I would demand something be done about it. Because it specifically tells me in the post that he doesn't want to do 1*s because you can just use the **** lotto.
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Re: Seasonal Card Upgrade

Postby Indignatio » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:18 pm

I love Alteil. I've been an active paying player since the Media Blaster days and have invested lord know's how much into Alteil because this is the first online trading card game I could actually understand and again I loved it. I've been quiet until now, but I understand what goes into running a business as I run one myself and this "upgrade" crap is just that... crap.

You are telling me that I dropped $$$ on seasonal lottos past in trying to get all the seasonal cards I could (because I'm a "collector") and then dropped $$$ on boxes and packs to get all the 5*s and have the "rare" collector cards to show for it and the Miku cards... and now $10 for each copy of a 5* seasonal card?!

I'm curious as to whether any of the seasonal cards can be truly considered an upgrade. They do the exact same thing the regular cards do except with different art. They cost the same when we lotto them. Their stats are the same as their normal counterparts. I'm paying $10 to change the art of the card. Call it for what it is.

I am offended by the rates. Truly offended. If the influx of capital is an issue then you should really take a hard look at the product you are selling and marketing. I would totally be willing to buy an Alteil t-shirt for $15+ than spend $5 on this event.

Thank you for you for your time.
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Re: Seasonal Card Upgrade

Postby Shirozaki » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:59 pm

Wow, you're doing so much better than gamepot apocoplay, I raise my hat to you and your collective stupidity.
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Re: Seasonal Card Upgrade

Postby quickdragon » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:30 am

So are you trading the normal for the seasonal + you need to pay money for it...
The prizes are ridiculously OVER PRICED (even for you guys). Maybe you're testing if people are willing to spend their money for the trade, but with these prices it's very obviously what's going to happen.
Yes you need money, but this is robbery. I wonder which idiot(s) thought that these prices are normal...

These prices are beyond stupid, moronic, retarded and fkd up. You guys really are trying hard to scare away players and making the ones you still have seriously doubt this games fairness. Man, this is like watching a timebomb counting down.
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Re: Seasonal Card Upgrade

Postby Logress » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:47 pm

@Kouseo I apologize I forgot about Wisp's special case since I'm not the one that set it up. It should be exchanged as if it was a 2-star. PM me about this, I'll make it up to you.

@Shiro The difference is, GP said pay 15$ because there's a small chance you'll get something REALLY AWESOME, otherwise you might be missing out. And I say spend 10$ (except - see bellow) for this specific thing of your choice with the parameters of the sale spelled out. I believe there is a difference between these two things.

You all may remember when I first took over the game and I made huge posts about how pricing works and how there were two basic ways to fix or at least change it. One was the Market place, of which various events conspired against us, but we're pretty far into the new file editor which is a prerequisite. The other was revamping the entire game first and then addressing it (this is the content of most of the specific complaints above). Our forums search function should get you that stuff. In any case, I found that doing nothing had its own bad side effects so we occasionally do stuff like this. If you don't like it, ignore it. It's not for you and it's not your problem.

The short version of my previous pricing explanations is this:
I look at what makes it worth running the shop event, (and yeah might be a little inflated in this automated case, but actually not that much as you will see below), and take into account that we may want some cashier activity, so it has to pass some basic threshold where some players will exchange some money instead of just expending a little saved up gran or Recycle. Because fixed events aren't as "Exciting" they have to be bumped up a little because otherwise less spending happens for an equivalent event. In some cases I add a 'pressure valve' where a user who really, really likes this event can spend more (in this case, would be getting more than one 5-star exchanged) Then I make the price as low as I can in those parameters. If the lowest price considering the above is not reasonable, event doesn't happen (or in this case I guess, shouldn't?). While we do sales designed to inject the playerbase with cards or playable decks (like the 500 Gran Pre-built sales of last year) cuz we don't expect to make a penny of real money, then we wouldn't consider a shop event. This is compounded by the fact that this is a test. The way testing works, if you don't make actual spending, IE Cashier use part of the equation the test doesn't necessarily tell you anything.

But I know what your thinking... the above line of thought should led me to say... $1!
Take a look at all the previous posts in this thread. An awful lot of people mentioned specific prices, generally the highest one possible: $10. This is interesting for a few reasons. As was pointed out, the 50% off was written off despite the fact few people are likely to want to trade in multiple 5* (although that is my guess, I could be wrong). The but the real key is that few complained about the price being 1000 Gran, and instead said $10. For starters there's a discount when you buy Gran, and of course through regular play (recycling TB and whatever) users accumulate some gran so any time a purchase is made, a certain portion of the Gran spent is not a monetary conversion. I'm guessing that around this point your thinking something like this, "okay, so what? 1000 gran is worth maybe $8.90? $8.50? Whatever, let's just call it $10, that's more than close enough and real easy to remember when I'm looking at 1000." This is one of my biggest challenges and frustrations with running the Alteil "economy", is that to a player, 1000 gran is worth $10, that's it's "real" value.

However, when doing the "math" of how the economy works. I need to use the value of 1000 gran to the economy itself, or to the "system" or to "Logress" or whatever you want to call it. So, I gotta basically figure out how much Gran is spent per $. There are a lot of things messing with this number, such as, the players who convert enough $ to gran at one time time get a bigger discount, and of course -- there are a certain percentage of users, who may or may not overlap with the forum regulars - but make up a good amount of the regular players, that are capable of scraping together Gran relatively quickly and much quicker when they are motivated by a sale type thing via methods like grinding and recycling. So it turns out the real value of 1000 gran to the "system" isn't $10 or even $8.50, but probably between $2 and $2.50... So $1 of system money is about 500 Gran... or with 50% off... 1000 gran. Magical.

The moral of this story isn't, "1000 gran is worth a dollar!" cuz, yeah that's just silly -- AND my original statement is still true, 1000 gran is worth about $10 to the average player. The moral of this story is "how did I get myself in this mess?" And yeah, I really, really want to have a hard division between Gran and FM at some point...

Seriously though, this is a test and a the numbers are there to make the test work, not to insult anyone. Having my experiments cause this level of backlash is an issue, but I can't necessarily just do everything by research. For example, in the world of vanity sales, it's very difficult to get trusted answers from other industry pros. The general answer is "Vanity sales are awesome, we let everyone grind for gameplay stuff and make 100% our money from vanity items." But people who have no reason to be giving me a 'company line' say stuff like "vanity sales are a PR gimmick to make users believe that it's possible to make money without paying for power, and anyone who tells you any actual $ is made from them is lying." Who's telling me the truth? My guess is it works differently for different games, but you can see why I'd want to try and see for myself.
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Re: Seasonal Card Upgrade

Postby worthing » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:35 pm

Logress post crits for over 9000 damage
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Re: Seasonal Card Upgrade

Postby angelspawns » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:56 pm

That's what i feared. You're testing if you can make enough revenue with selling "vanity stuff".

But this is just 1 vanity thing. Yet you priced it like the company has to run on this idea alone, and thus put a huge pricetag on it. It's also tested in an enviroment where 1000Gran still has to get you NEW playingcards... hell, you even got the Ex cards and Seasonal Lotto running besides it. Playable content over vanity...
Changing the art on a card alone isn't worth the 1000Gran you need, so don't try getting it with that alone?


If you want to test this you should test it under the right circumstances. Bring out more cool vanity things, and put a more reasonable price on each one of them. You make it more appealing to be a premium member aswell. (like i said: increase TB % by years of premium?)
Get some revenue from Avatar stuff, get some revenue from Seasonal, get some revenue from more cardslots, get some revenue for more detailed data analistics, get some revenue for more background choices, ask me for ideas if you're interested...
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