An actual thread about strategy

Strategies and Card File Construction

Re: An actual thread about strategy

Postby Khiruki » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:55 am

NitroDino wrote:Stronghold

pros
allows use not only of great spirits, but cards that will actually generate SP like Emerald Buncle, Rileria and Moxies (you don't need to put manually 1 sphere level into non-lawtia spheres)

cons:
you are open to an iczer attack turn 2- If you follow up with T2 Shade, that doesn't become a big problem
you waste the AT+10 skill- Mhm.
opponent plays a sacrifice unit before you which can lead to that he will trigger his first soul skill faster than you- The only units that this applies to are Jewel of the Deep Sea and Exploding Spores. Nothing else would die without your input, unless your opponent uses friendly fire open damage.


Maybe should have specified Stronghold->Shade.
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Re: An actual thread about strategy

Postby NitroDino » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:00 am

You forgot MD Defective + Lucia SS and Stronghold -> Shade sucks against Shade -> Shade opens.

Well you could probably play dragon breath turn 2 to stop defective, but that would result in triggering the first ss anyway.
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Re: An actual thread about strategy

Postby Khiruki » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:12 am

NitroDino wrote:You forgot MD Defective + Lucia SS and Stronghold -> Shade suck against Shade -> Shade opens.

Well you could probably play dragon breath turn 2 to stop defective, but that would result in triggering the first ss anyway.


True point about the defective open. Still, the most common file that goes that route is Urgrant, so Stronghold will still drain 2SP T1. Still a decent setback, and greater than what shade open would accomplish.

If the Stronghold player goes Shade-Shade after stronghold, then he's almost guaranteed a drain from the second shade. Noted that the opponent will have a lvl 3 out one turn earlier, though player 1 has a sizable advantage in SP.
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Re: An actual thread about strategy

Postby ChiYoung » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:38 am

Stronghold of Chaos:

Con: You must tailor your build to use the sphere levels generated by SoC or you will be at an SP disadvantage.

This is a pretty big con.

Con:

Leaves you open to Iczer attacks from rush files like pixies and EN

This is pretty big. If you only have 8 or 9 LP that means that if they iczer twice you'll only have 6 or 7. As a stanch supporter of pixies, I feel like most people misunderstand the mindset of uber rush files like EN or pixies. No matter what happens, if you want to win, you HAVE to eat soul skill damage if you want to win. Thus, it's better to take the damage earlier, so you can counter with your own SS or revive early. That's why I always insist on having at least one unit out on the field, doesn't matter what file I play.

@khiruki: Shade turn 2 is actually a problem for me when I play pixy against this opening. Usually I put 1 point in Lawt to avoid shade open and get sphere level for cem rats, however SoC actually makes me lose 2 SP, in addition to messing up my turn 3 with shade. It's nasty. The only way I win is if I know someone is using SoC and tailor my SS before hand.
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Re: An actual thread about strategy

Postby Khiruki » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:43 pm

ChiYoung wrote:Stronghold of Chaos:

Con: You must tailor your build to use the sphere levels generated by SoC or you will be at an SP disadvantage.

This is a pretty big con.



...What? Just splash a salamander.


Con:

Leaves you open to Iczer attacks from rush files like pixies and EN

This is pretty big. If you only have 8 or 9 LP that means that if they iczer twice you'll only have 6 or 7. As a stanch supporter of pixies, I feel like most people misunderstand the mindset of uber rush files like EN or pixies. No matter what happens, if you want to win, you HAVE to eat soul skill damage if you want to win. Thus, it's better to take the damage earlier, so you can counter with your own SS or revive early. That's why I always insist on having at least one unit out on the field, doesn't matter what file I play.

@khiruki: Shade turn 2 is actually a problem for me when I play pixy against this opening. Usually I put 1 point in Lawt to avoid shade open and get sphere level for cem rats, however SoC actually makes me lose 2 SP, in addition to messing up my turn 3 with shade. It's nasty. The only way I win is if I know someone is using SoC and tailor my SS before hand.


SP. Iczer attacks cost SP. A large number of Lawtia rushes run Gafc in first and/or second soul. Making that iczer attack into SS1 just dug you in -3SP, assuming you want to revive the dead pixy. If you try playing anything T2, Shade will drain any loose SP for iczering. Pixies don't have to care much for SP advantage in terms of endgame, true. However, early game SP lock is deadly for any rush.
Last edited by Khiruki on Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An actual thread about strategy

Postby Spears » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:45 pm

Its pretty niche but whilst stronghold leaves you open for a t2 iczer attack you will normally build to account for that, unlike a shade open. The t2 salamander iczer atk vs shade opens is very potent as most shade-lvl3 opens wont expect to burn a 2nd ss on t3.
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Re: An actual thread about strategy

Postby Icyman2 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:28 pm

not a fan of early iczer attacks
listen to gon. shade sucks on the field. wish it had an auto kill option. if you've ever watched a lawtia game where shade never gets hit, things get super ugly fast. worthing posted a video of back when lawtia rush was super popular (not because of death's embrace and bitter destiny though, but because of unnerfed units and souls, especially greatsword) and commented that his video was about how luck he was because he killed ex cak early without killing shade.
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Re: An actual thread about strategy

Postby randomguy00 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:54 pm

I know people will disagree on this, but I think 2 lawtia/stronghold is pretty good...
I can either shade next turn or level 3 depending on what I think I need against the other guy
And no, I don't need the extra sphere levels.
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Re: An actual thread about strategy

Postby Malarious » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:07 pm

Well the way I see Stronghold.....

-1 sphere from opponent or more. (more if they multi-colored)
+1 sphere level for you minimum. (more if you use it for the other spheres too)

Share:
-1 drain from opponent (rarely).
gives +1 when it closes. at the cost of losing an LP.


I think stronghold actually wins, and if you follow with shade or sala turn 2 you can avoid the SP attack as noted.


Another, less likely to work, alternative is Dark confederation for 1sp. -1sp to opp (still hits against shade as well) and removes a lvl 1 (like owl sage if they cath open). its more hit or miss than the others though for sure.
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Re: An actual thread about strategy

Postby ChiYoung » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:19 pm

Stronghold and shade got me a 6 win streak in Folrart before being beat down by Caesar's EN file. As I feared, it is weak against uber-rushes.

I comboed it into my dolls file. I was able to use the Falkow and Gowen spheres by teching in two sallies and two undines, which make it easy to dominate the field.

Most multi-sphere files just couldn't recover from -3 SP combo, and monosphere files had a hard time evading the T2 shade.
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