Tidalwave - pick your nerf

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Tidalwave - pick your nerf

Postby angelspawns » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:11 pm

::DISCLAIMER:: Potential backers: Alteil:Horizons will seperate people from non-tournament legal cards, so this discussion about Tidalwave might not matter. Also note that dispite my grown distain against this card, this game is by far the most balanced one i've seen after 13 Sets and 1000+ cards strong. There's a huge amount of different files to play in the same RP range and win/lose ratio. There's no such thing as a file that beats all others. There is however such a thing as bad matchups, where one file has a 90%+ winrate over the other and visa-versa. The reasons for this can be traced back to just a few cards in Alteils existence; single cards that simply have to much power over another strategy.
What normally happens is that the other strategy gets more counters against it or even straight out nerfs, and in ALOT of cases that's been true over the years... but not (enough) in this particulair case of Tidalwave/return mechanics in my opinion.


That's why i'm proposing the following:

Direct Nerfs:
1)
- 1st Openskill: [Conditional use: It's Turn 4 or lower] Return one Grimoire from your Cemetery to your Card File, and then raise Grimcount+2. You get Falkow +1. Send this card directly to cemetery.
- 2nd Openskill: [Conditional use: Falkow lvl3/Turn 5 or higher] Return one unit lvl2 or below to its Card File. Send a Grimoire from Card File to Cemetery.

2)
- 1st Openskill: [Conditional use: Falkow lvl3 or higher] Return one unit lvl2 or below to its Card File. Send a Grimoire from Card File to Cemetery.
- 2nd Openskill: You get SP=0. You get [current SP + 2] at the beginning next turn.

3)
- Openskill: [Conditional use: Opponent has 3 or more units on his field] Return one unit lvl2 or below to its Card File. Send a Grimoire from Card File to Cemetery.

4)
Make it Lvl2 and remove the "Send a Grimoire from Card File to Cemetery" part. Or make the Openskill cost (1SP) and remove the "Send a Grimoire from Card File to Cemetery" part.

5)
Give all Grimoires a standard Agi Value of 1.
Then you can let CERTAIN Grimoires (read: a very rare select few) win important Agirolls they need to become viable.

Idea 1): Allows the opponent the first few moves to start before getting disrupted = Folrart will see more diverse openings with lvl2's. Instead this card will help deal with early Grimbane.
Combo potential: Ariette->lvl3(WizardSoldier/PrincessBernet/Ariande/CaptMirelia)->Tidalwave. Total Grimcount of 4 for your first Lvl3.
Idea 2): It helps dodge shade, but also prevents OwlSage from genning SP that turn.
Tidal on a lvl2 already gives a +1SP lead on the SP Curve. If OwlSage gens SP that turn thats a +2SP lead... In early stage buildup that's really too much imo.
Idea 3): Still allows some form of buildup. There are enough rush vs. rush moments to use Tidal, but it keeps atleast 2 units on the field. It prevents those Tidals for easy iczer attacks or other reasons beyond aquiring fieldadvantage. ("just because it'll cost another 2SP to play for my 1SP" "Killing it gives him back the SP" etc.) It's a lvl1 card. Use it to gain fieldadvantage, not to completely avoid fights where and whenever there's a lvl2 laying on the field.
Idea 4): Nomore SP lead at the sacrifice of a random Grim. Just like Return it's directly balanced by its cost, not by an effect that may -or may not- matter at that particulair time it's being played.
Idea 5): Only the Grimoires made to counter specific situations. Think of MiracleFruit(Agi+1).
The fact you 1) get the right matchup for the specific counter. 2) predicted the SS/Grimoire, and the timing. 3) pay the SP cost. Should NOT make another 50/50 coinflip if it'll stop what it's meant to stop. Nothing frustrates more then actually having a matchup where the counter is usable and it still fails to stop the effect from happening, dispite skillful play and timing. At which point it becomes really hard to justify the space it occupies.



Indirect Nerfs.
6)
Lvl2&3 Units with Rankup effect "This unit gets lvl+1".

7)
Lvl2 Units that are "immune to Grimoires".

8)
A Lvl1, 30HP/0AT/5Def/1Agi/2Rng.
- Openskill: One friendly unit gets Lvl+1.
- Autoskill: [Conditional: This unit is in Frontrow] No Grimoires can be set Next Turn.
- Closeskill: Send this unit back to your Cardfile. You get +1 SP.

Idea 6): Rankup happens before Openskills, effectively raising a units level above Tidal requirement.
Idea 7): Doesn't need explaining. However this idea has been rejected before on FolrartShieldKnight as proper buff....
Idea 8): You need to kill it/move it from frontrow... or Tidal a Lvl1. Not the most difficult to counter, but can be good cannonfodder that helps delaying.



This will undoubtly result in a discussion between people wanting to keep Tidalwave the way it is, and people who grew tired of it.
Let me just tell this upfront: A healthy enviroment changes the meta and meta cards regulairy. It's to keep things fresh and surprising. You get a healthy circulation of cards for a wide viarity of playstyles and diversity. And this game has done so. It added counters to current meta en mechanics, applied nerfs and introduced new cards. Even the lesser encountered "send to cemetery" effect has direct counters, but "send to Cardfile" still does not? Explain to me how that happened.................. I think it's about time.
Looking at the same effect from 6 years ago and still not being able to stop it from happening becomes nothing less then a growing source of frustration.
People adjust their play around it, change their openings around it (which lead to ALOT of predictable predetermined openings in Folrart), but they're still not countering that tidal from selecting your lvl2 and being returned back into your file.
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Re: Tidalwave - pick your nerf

Postby dfmchfhf » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:19 pm

Direct counters
1) Pack Aria in your file.
2) http://dfmchfhf.comxa.com/Alteil/card-list.php?skill=LV%2B
3) Pack Purging. Chances are, if they are running Tidal, they are Falkow, and will thus die to Purging.
4) Don't play critical L2s
5) Pack Stronghold of Chaos. What 3 Falkow? *disclaimer: may need to be applied repeatedly.
6) If your file loses to falkow so often, why not run Fire DragonTalisman MysticSS?
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Re: Tidalwave - pick your nerf

Postby angelspawns » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:37 pm

Want to see a replay of Aria getting returned? How about 3x in a row? Sorry to say, but no.....

Do you actually know what a counter is?
Naming damage grims can't be further off from stopping a Return Grimoire from working. xD So is 'dont play the unit so it can't get returned' and 'play falkow sphere hate SS'. A counter says something like "Stop effect X". Like 'Units can't be engaged, and 'Units can't be send to cemetery'. And 'Units can't be send to cardfile'.
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Re: Tidalwave - pick your nerf

Postby Jazzock » Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:08 pm

Are you trying to say tidal is op, or tidal + owl is op? :?
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Re: Tidalwave - pick your nerf

Postby sunbunman » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:35 am

deny sp gen
spam threats
win.

there counter for return
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Re: Tidalwave - pick your nerf

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:13 pm

angelspawns wrote:There's no such thing as a file that beats all others.[/b] There is however such a thing as bad matchups, where one file has a 90%+ winrate over the other and visa-versa. The reasons for this can be traced back to just a few cards in Alteils existence; single cards that simply have to much power over another strategy.

I 100% agree with you on this point, but I think your proposed solution is extremely unhealthy for this game long term. If you have a 9-1 match-up, it's not clear to me why you'd want to remedy this problem by nerfs rather than introducing counterplay.

For example big red poops on a lot of files, but would you honestly suggest nerfing cards like Allind rather than introducing AoE heals and mass revivals?
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Re: Tidalwave - pick your nerf

Postby angelspawns » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:58 pm

May i introduce you to my older thread: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=12877&p=162210&sid=a250276978411401a0c0819b8dc27eed#p162210

Counters for return mechanic. It is also my prefered method, but i already tried to walk that road. Haven't done a straight out nerfing request yet. ;)
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Re: Tidalwave - pick your nerf

Postby Jazzock » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:28 pm

I'm just going to leave this here...

http://alteil-login.apocoplay.com/audit ... 83221b8807

I honestly don't think tidal is that bad. Annoying and powerful yes, but I don't really think it's OP tier.
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Re: Tidalwave - pick your nerf

Postby GOSCAR » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:19 pm

lv 2 grim:
From now on all units in play get lv+1. (Like Rivera skill but for level.)
One does not play alteil the way they want. -Gon

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Re: Tidalwave - pick your nerf

Postby sunbunman » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:46 pm

GOSCAR wrote:lv 2 grim:
From now on all units in play get lv+1. (Like Rivera skill but for level.)


I actually don't mind that, as long as it affects all units. Mermaids will make you cry though xD

Approved, Rom make it happen!
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